The HfP chat thread – Tuesday 7th December

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• Danny says:

  7 Dec7 December 02:36

  While I don’t think I would have the patience to argue it at the airport, would I be wrong to think that the pre-departure test regulations absolutely allow for an uncertified self lateral flow as long as you send yourself an email mentioning the negative result, name, date of birth, etc etc?

  • ianM says:

    7 Dec7 December 02:58

    It’s clear on gov.uk that the NHS tests are not acceptable, it needs to be a private tester.

    • Save East Coast Rewards says:

      7 Dec7 December 03:24

      I think their question was more around could you take a self tested lateral flow (the one Randox were giving out recently for day 2 tests was exactly the same as the NHS free ones) and then create your own certificate with all the required details on.

      • Blenz101 says:

        7 Dec7 December 04:40

        Isn’t there some rules about the contact details for the certifying accredited lab needing to be present?

  • Save East Coast Rewards says:

    7 Dec7 December 03:03

    Personally I don’t care if you try to get round any rules as a lot of them have just been made so companies can profit off the pandemic. As my comment below shows it’s quite possible to travel one way to a country that doesn’t require testing and then get stuck on the way back.

    • Save East Coast Rewards says:

      7 Dec7 December 03:27

      I don’t think I worded that well. Please test regularly when travelling for your sake and others, but I mean I have no moral objection to people who would rather avoid lining the pockets of government donors finding loopholes.

      • Yuff says:

        7 Dec7 December 05:46

        I think you worded it pretty well.
        If travellers are double and triple jabbed I don’t see why they should be penalised for wanting to travel.
        Figures yesterday showed 90% of icu beds, innEngland, are taken by un-vaccinated patients.
        Countries with good take up of vaccinations are doing pretty well, so why should vaccinated passengers be ripped off further.

        • Roberto says:

          7 Dec7 December 06:56

          90% unvaccinated?
          Total rubbish.
          What is the source?

        • Geoff 1977 says:

          7 Dec7 December 07:42

          It was 90% needing the most serious treatment in ICU rather than ICU but the point is still a relevant one regarding the mad anti vaxxers

    • Jonathan says:

      7 Dec7 December 07:58

      @Roberto: NHS England published data from Friday showing between July & November 90% of ventilated patients were unvaccinated. Can’t find the link to that data quickly but here are two sources from Nottingham & NE London backing that up.

      https://nottsccg.nhs.uk/covid-19/warning-from-hospital-bosses-on-importance-of-vaccine-as-number-of-unvaccinated-patients-in-intensive-care-increases/

      https://northeastlondonccg.nhs.uk/news/almost-90-of-patients-admitted-to-intensive-care-units-in-north-east-london-are-not-fully-vaccinated/

      From my personal experience this is true, we are seeing less patients needing ventilation overall than the first two peaks but they are younger & with less comorbidities. They still require a prolonged period of ICU care & mortality is over 30%.

      We are also cancelling major elective surgery on an almost daily basis for conditions like cancer as there is no capacity for post-op ICU/HDU care. 20+% of our ICU beds are occupied by Covid patients, if they weren’t there then this surgery could happen. This means people are missing out on potentially life saving/prolonging operations due to unvaccinated people filling the beds.

      You can’t just open more beds as there aren’t the staff available & unsurprisingly the nursing staff are exhausted & no longer able to do the extra shifts that would be needed. We’re now dealing with a marathon not a sprint so ability to surge capacity just isn’t there.

  • Harry T says:

    7 Dec7 December 05:55

    I don’t think this is allowed within the guidelines and it sounds like a pretty good way to get legally fisted. Personally I’d just pay the fairly trivial cost of a PCR/LF test.

    Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s utter bull crap that I need to be tested to return to my own country after three doses of the magic Bill Gates serum. It’s preposterous and borderline malevolent that the government risks its own citizens being trapped abroad in various less democratic nations, when there is already significant community transmission of a variant that doesn’t appear to actually be significantly more clinically dangerous, and when we’ve vaccinated over 80% of adults and booster nearly 30% more.

    • JDB says:

      7 Dec7 December 06:38

      It’s not just “the” government that you are so keen to denigrate at every opportunity – lots of respectable countries all over the world are currently requiring pre departure tests that might leave their own citizens trapped abroad.

      • Harry T says:

        7 Dec7 December 06:46

        Yes, they are being silly too. But I only have first hand experience of my own government 🙂

        • JDB says:

          7 Dec7 December 07:09

          @Harry T – from the US/Brazil approach to the ANZ/China, nobody seems very happy with their government’s approaches/outcomes. Our government has made big mistakes and got some things very right, which for dealing with an unknown and evolving target seems about right. The thing I find interesting is the apparent complete unacceptability in the UK to consider vaccine passports for broad hospitality venues to drive up hitherto disappointing vaccination rates as they have in France and Italy. Unvaccinated adults are causing disproportionate problems for everyone else. I also don’t really understand why people here are still so reluctant to wear masks; it may not do a lot but it’s a tiny ask and, if nothing else, a basic courtesy to others.

      • Paul says:

        7 Dec7 December 07:11

        But with few exceptions no other country in Europe has a clown as PM and a uniquely unqualified group of people in cabinet positions. Their handling of Covid has been catastrophic, their handling of so much more has been just as bad and it’s always some else fault!

        • Harry T says:

          7 Dec7 December 07:33

          Agree with Paul.

          Vaccine passports are just a means of coercing people into being vaccinated, which is a different strategy to argue for in the UK, when we have very good take up of vaccines, especially in elderly/vulnerable groups.

          I’m fairly sceptical of mask use in the UK, as it doesn’t seem to have made a difference in Scotland, Wales or many European countries recently – plus, most people don’t wear them properly or use surgical masks etc (I’m not a big believer in infrequently washed pieces of cloth). I also don’t see the point of mandating mask use in shops and on public transport, when households are free to mix without PPE in private dwellings and hospitality.

        • Harry T says:

          7 Dec7 December 07:34

          Difficult strategy*

          Apple hates me.

        • AJA says:

          7 Dec7 December 08:38

          @Harry T and Paul in the same way as a Covid vaccine passport, isn’t requiring a pre-departure test and a post-arrival test and quarantine also a means of coercing people to be vaccinated?

          Harry, if you’re so opposed to the testing regime and mask wearing and covid passports what are you in favour of?

          You both seem to be suggesting that the UK government is full of idiots who can’t organise a p*ss up in a brewery and consequently against everything the government is doing. So out of curiosity what would you do?

          I would love to know because I’m pretty sure your plans would be full of holes and just as easy to criticise.

          It is very easy to criticise but far harder to come up with a good strategy.

      • Geoff 1977 says:

        7 Dec7 December 08:00

        “ pre departure tests that might leave their own citizens trapped abroad.”

        Better than letting infected people on a plane surely which could then mean someone else on the plane has to isolate over Xmas surely?

        • davef says:

          7 Dec7 December 08:27

          Chances of isolation or not makes no diff if people are pre tested.

          I flew back from Iceland in July when pre-testing was mandatory. On the 8th day after return I was pinged by T&T that I needed to isolate for 2 days because someone on the flight was postive on return.

        • andyT says:

          7 Dec7 December 13:00

          And if they happen to be trapped abroad “in a less democratic nation” they should have chosen their holiday destination with more care.

      • bazza says:

        7 Dec7 December 10:13

        These people never stop with their hatred of Boris and Co. It was the old Brexit that pushed them over the edge.

        It worked to get Trump out…

    • Pete says:

      7 Dec7 December 07:13

      Replying to Roberto.
      The Times last Saturday.

      Presumably you have more accurate information?

      • Roberto says:

        7 Dec7 December 07:50

        The Times? LOL
        I nearly thought you could be credible for a second.
        Check out the new ONS data or NHS.
        It’s currently about a 55-45 ratio.
        Also take into account more people have had the vax so the numbers are still skewed slightly

        • Tracey says:

          7 Dec7 December 08:06

          Given that 80% of the population have been at least double vaxxed, 55-45 represents a far higher proportion of the unvaxxed.

      • Freddy says:

        7 Dec7 December 07:53

        The 90% statistic has been rubbished since publication.

        “This used to be true. The figure now is more like 35%.”

        • Geoff 1977 says:

          7 Dec7 December 08:10

          “ Given that 80% of the population have been at least double vaxxed, 55-45 represents a far higher proportion of the unvaxxed.”

          Yes but some people don’t understand basic maths unfortunately

        • Luke says:

          7 Dec7 December 09:08

          Source please

        • Luke says:

          7 Dec7 December 09:11

          Freddy-Source please. Presumably the quotation marks that you use means you are quoting someone?

        • Yuff says:

          7 Dec7 December 09:26

          Lol….I have seen that figure re-tweeted many times by the anti-vaxxers

    • Polly says:

      7 Dec7 December 12:42

      Hear, hear, Harry, and Jonathan

    • Doug M says:

      7 Dec7 December 13:15

      Bang on it Harry T.

  • John says:

    7 Dec7 December 07:01

    https://klarity.health provides a certificate for a self-test but you need to video yourself

    • JDB says:

      7 Dec7 December 07:11

      @John – Your issue will be to get any self certification (which does seem precluded by the rules) accepted by VeriFLY and or any check-in desk as well as convincing Border Force if they check your docs.

    • Dean says:

      7 Dec7 December 07:26

      Has anyone used this with an NHS test without problem?, just wondering if I could use this for pre-departure testing to and from US.

      • ianM says:

        7 Dec7 December 13:13

        I got a free test in Atlanta yesterday for flight today, it doesn’t have all the information listed, but fact is it has been done independently by a medical practice, it identifies me, it is negative so I an hoping no issues at airport.

        Most places charging over $200 for a LFT and in fact very few practices offering that sort of rapid test at all.

    • Nick Burch says:

      7 Dec7 December 13:43

      No video needed on their “Basic Antigen COVID Certificate” package for a tenner, just two photos.

      After paying you get a login for their app, and are guided through the process on that. After a 15 minute wait, you take a photo of the LFD cassette and another of the QR code on the test. Enter in the rest of your details (passport etc), and a little while later you get a fancy looking PDF in the app and by email.

      • JDB says:

        7 Dec7 December 21:09

        Sounds like a cracking way to acquire your data fairly cheaply.

        • Gagravarr says:

          7 Dec7 December 21:15

          You can probably get all my data even cheaper off the people who hacked BA, the people who hacked SPG, and I think there was another one. Getting a lot of spam lately to my special email address only given to IHG, but I suspect from the contents that it’s just one specific hotel who flogged / lost my details there. Other than passport number, I’m not sure what I had to give Klarity that Companies House don’t already post about me as a director…

  • Geoff 1977 says:

    7 Dec7 December 07:43

    Try it and see what happens and post the outcome on here

    • Yorkieflyer says:

      7 Dec7 December 16:17

      He’ll probably get away with it so I’m not getting the popcorn in, however why bother when £17 gets you LFT

• Save East Coast Rewards says:

  7 Dec7 December 02:45

  So after returning from the US a group of 6 of us were off to Egypt. 2 were participating in a swimming competition. The rest of us were there to watch. We took the return tests and one in the group tested positive. Everyone else was negative including one person in the group that wasn’t vaccinated.

  So all of the negatives went back to Italy (except me), I decided to wait in Egypt to offer my friend any support needed. I had heard some scare stories, even the UK FCO said that there was a risk they’d be taken to a quarantine hospital with no access to friends and family.

  In the end it didn’t turn out as bad as this. The hotel is approved for quarantine and has a doctor that does a daily check. I can keep in touch with the internal phone or the internet and even drop off supplies at the room door. After 5 days a new PCR is conducted. If that is all clear then he can leave. I was told a test is not needed to release on day 10 as long as there’s no covid symptoms. They believe that if you’ve been without symptoms for 10 days the virus has probably left the infectious stage.

  Due to the short nature of the trip it’s quite possible he picked up covid in Italy, but the requirements for entry to Egypt are vaccine OR test. Coming back Italy requires both a negative test and 10 days quarantine.

  So my advice for those travelling to countries that don’t require a pre-departure test is to take one anyway, use a free NHS one if you’re in the UK and take some tests for the way back. Even if you need to take a paid for test to return do the free one first. If you test positive with the free one then you can manage your own isolation without having to go to the testing centre.

  My friend was recently vaccinated (2nd dose October I think) so nowhere near due for a booster, I had my 2nd dose at the end of July and have been clear so far. The others (except the one not vaccinated) we’re all done between August and October

  • Save East Coast Rewards says:

    7 Dec7 December 02:48

    Last sentence: were not we’re. Not sure why the iPhone chooses to ‘correct’ that sometimes and not others.

• A says:

  7 Dec7 December 04:07

  BA decided to turn away what appears to be most of BA188 EWR-LHR this evening..
  Reason given was because the flight lands after 4am so they said the new rules apply…
  That’s odd, given it’s Monday here, the flight was scheduled for 21:35, and left late at 22:26 which even after the mass offloading and messing about is still a pre 4am departure.
  It’s clearly stated as a pre-departure test that’s required from 4am Uk time tomorrow and not a pre-arrival test, so to me this is a screw up on the part of BA perhaps, being overly cautious, but still, I hope they get walloped for a load of IDB claims.
  Everyone affected sent away and told they need a PCR test which I’m currently helping someone to get booked for first thing tomorrow now, with the result hopefully back in time to get the result back for a rebooking onto a JFK flight.
  Farcical.

  • A says:

    7 Dec7 December 04:14

    Apparently an email was sent out at 18:40 local time, which many didn’t receive, hence lots of people turning up oblivious.

  • Save East Coast Rewards says:

    7 Dec7 December 04:15

    Do they really need a PCR? It’s lateral flow (a term nobody outside the UK seems to have heard of, but ‘rapid antigen’ seems to be understood most places), but of course a PCR is also accepted too.

    Stories like this will just put people off flying as they’ll be worried that they got the requirements wrong, or the airports get the requirements wrong.

    When I came back from Florida the testing place I used (free) suggested both a lateral flow and PCR test for me (I only needed the first one, but as it was free I thought there’s no harm having both but I knew if the PCR didn’t come through the antigen was ok to use to show fit to fly). As soon as I got the antigen results (30 mins) I uploaded to VeriFLY and they were approved. Airport staff in MIA were happy with just the VeriFLY approval.

  • Blenz101 says:

    7 Dec7 December 04:37

    Wasn’t the 4am picked because no flights arrive at that time. The next wave into the U.K. after this point on Tuesday all require a negative pre departure test.

    Given the flight landed at just after 9am this morning a negative test would be required. I think BA were correct albeit perhaps they could have done a better job of informing customers.

    That said my parents are flying back to the U.K. this morning from DXB and have heard nothing at all from EK. Whilst we follow the U.K. news and we’re aware of the bill changes I’m guessing there will be a few people who have had their phone on airplane mode since arrival and may not even be aware of the sudden change in rules.

    • Yuff says:

      7 Dec7 December 05:30

      The whole situation is a bit of a joke to be honest.
      We flew EK to Madrid yesterday, no restrictions travelling to Spain although at check in we were asked if we had had vaccinations, which we have all had although our son’s 2nd jab was less than we days ago.
      Arrive at Madrid and it is chaos with so many passengers, wife and son check in for flight to Mallorca, I check in for Heathrow and flight over booked. I had booked the flat bed business class so not too happy.
      Got a business seat at the gate.
      Arrive at T5, it is like a morgue……..the government have done a tremendous job messing up travel.
      Spain seems to be doing remarkably better than the Uk on managing this, possibly helped by higher vaccination rates.

      • Harry T says:

        7 Dec7 December 05:57

        Not hard for Spain to do a better job managing travel than the UK, is it? UK government seems determined to kill the travel industry to line the pockets of Randox et al.

        • Andrew says:

          7 Dec7 December 06:25

          I’m not sure that’s the reason they are restricting travel!

        • JDB says:

          7 Dec7 December 06:41

          If you kill travel, surely Randox will have less travel related business? If Randox doesn’t participate in the routine domestic testing, who else has the capacity to take on the contract?

  • John says:

    7 Dec7 December 07:10

    It was pretty obvious that 4am was intended to refer to the arrival time, as a 4am arrival cutoff was used for all previous rule changes and no rule changes have used a departure time cutoff.

    If the tests were checked in the UK, it would make sense to have everyone arriving before a certain time not need to do it, and everyone after needing to do it.

    It would not make sense to have 3 days where arriving travellers might or might not be subject to the requirement, as the total travel time could be anything from 1 hour to over 48 hours, and “4am on 7 Dec” could be any time over a 26-hour period (UTC-12 to UTC+14 timezones exist).

    Yes, the government’s wording was ambiguous, but would you rather just take a test or spend hours and lots of money trying to sue BA with an non-guaranteed result?

    Always go by the most restrictive interpretation unless doing so is less hassle than taking an airline to court, where your case is not watertight.

    • Andrew says:

      7 Dec7 December 07:30

      Agree, seemed quite obvious it meant arrival time and why would you take the chance anyway for the sake of a few quid on a test.

    • pauldb says:

      7 Dec7 December 07:42

      I agree that I wouldn’t take the chance, but the wording was ambiguous: “From 4am, Tuesday 7 December all people aged 12 years and over must take a PCR or LFD COVID-19 test before they travel to England from abroad.”

      I believe this is enforced by the airline/ferry-operator having to make the check before departure, not at the UK border, so actually your argument about travel times works the other way around. Oddly I can’t see a Statutory Instrument putting this into law, which would hopefully provide clarity.

      • AJA says:

        7 Dec7 December 08:52

        However ambiguous the wording it is clear that it is a pre-departure test required for all arrivals (not departures) into the UK. The rules kicked in at 4am this morning. Therefore a little bit of common sense should have made people ask what time do I arrive in the UK, is it before 4am or after 4am? If before 4am rule doesn’t apply, if after 4am it does. HfPs article clearly indicated that pre-departure testing was required for all arrivals after 4am today. Its a moot point though now as it is now clear the airlines were erring on the side of caution and it is 4hours since the deadline.

      • Dubious says:

        7 Dec7 December 10:42

        Reading the rule you’ve quoted seems quite clear to me, if you take the perspective of a transport company who needs to adhere to the rule.

        If it is the general public reading it, from a variety of perspectives, influences by different times zones and routings, I can understand why there is ambiguity.

        • Dubious says:

          7 Dec7 December 10:43

          PS..it maybe moot today, but it won’t be moot the next time the rules change…

  • Lady London says:

    7 Dec7 December 14:17

    Denied Boarding compensation EU261.
    Plus full duty of care extra hotel, transport to andvfrom, meals internet or a couple of phone calls.

    Changing the rules (overriding govt requirements) by sending text or letter that late when people had no time left to comply doesn’t count as it’s unreasonable.

    BA is responsible for whatever ground staff they use making correct decisions so I’d claim to stop them doing this to others when not required in future.

  • Yorkieflyer says:

    7 Dec7 December 16:13

    The Gov website may be badly worded but it will be the SI which matters. Appreciate this was tricky as the SI followed behind and probably after check in for some folk. Nonetheless, As I said yesterday, every previous change has been for arrivals after 0400 so it seemed obvious to me, surprised that so many, including Rob I think, thought otherwise

    • kitten says:

      7 Dec7 December 17:49

      It is not the responsibility of ordinary people to second-guess and interpret a different wording to what a government source plainly says. In most circumstances this would get you punished as you’d be wrong if you breached what the government definitely said.

      It’s the government’s duty to be clear and no passenger can be at fault for taking the govt at its word. And the word in this case was clear.

• Bill says:

  7 Dec7 December 04:45

  Can anyone confirm if the pre-arrival test for returning to the UK needs to contain the passport number? I am currently looking for a lateral flow test in Mexico City, but I’m worried this information won’t be included.

  • AL says:

    7 Dec7 December 04:57

    It doesn’t need the passport number, per https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-testing-for-people-travelling-to-england#how-to-provide-proof-of-a-negative-test-result (assuming we’re now lumped in the non-EU section, because there is no UK section… sigh!).

  • Blenz101 says:

    7 Dec7 December 04:59

    Passport number not needed. Details of what is required are here…

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-testing-for-people-travelling-to-england

    • Bill says:

      7 Dec7 December 05:16

      Awesome, thank you.

  • Save East Coast Rewards says:

    7 Dec7 December 05:00

    Ask them to put it on if they can just to be on the safe side. However the test results I got from Miami (that were accepted by VeriFLY) just had my date of birth on it (in US format) so it shouldn’t be an issue. It was from a free testing centre which had a fixed format for their test results, I was prepared to go to a paid provider if the document wasn’t considered suitable to fly.

    As far as I know it just needs info that ties it to you and that can be date of birth or passport number but just in case of staff not familiar with the rules it’s best to get both on if you can.

    • Andrew says:

      7 Dec7 December 06:27

      I was impressed by the availability of free certificated testing in Miami.

      • Paul says:

        7 Dec7 December 07:02

        LFT in Germany at the airport is 19 Euro

  • Harry T says:

    7 Dec7 December 05:58

    You don’t seem to need it but no harm in adding it.

• Yuff says:

  7 Dec7 December 05:32

  On another note all the sub £1 day 2 providers have disappeared to be replaced by £15 providers who, when you click through, surprisingly have nothing less than a £90 test available……
  His hard can it be for a government official to check it daily…….

  • Tracey says:

    7 Dec7 December 08:19

    They are all at it. I tried to order a “from £59” ExpressTest from Brent Cross site on Sunday, as soon as I clicked through it jumped to £99. Went to their Hatfield site instead – advertised at £80 and charged £80. By all accounts saved myself a long queue as well as £19 each. As a data point, advertised as by the end of the next day and results came through around 6pm next day. Good for a Sunday service.

    As a warning to read the small print. St Lucia travel websites and gov.uk page say test required within 5 days, I assumed that meant 5 days before travel, but no, day of test is day 1 and day of travel is day 5. So really only 4 days. More by luck than anything we were just within the limit.

• Mark says:

  7 Dec7 December 06:24

  Does Hyatt status match from Hilton Gold?

  • Travel Strong says:

    7 Dec7 December 06:59

    Only aware of MLife-Hyatt status matching

• Annie t says:

  7 Dec7 December 06:49

  Thinking of upgrading to curve metal – app still says can pay off a credit card with another credit card. Is that still working without charges or consequences please ? For example Hong Kong to beardy and vice Versa. Thank you.

  • Alex says:

    7 Dec7 December 10:45

    And another may be silly question following the one above but I was not following the chat on here recently – does Ernie still allow top ups using this route, up to 10,000/month, or has this been blocked?

• Paul says:

  7 Dec7 December 07:00

  BA have marked my flights to Germany as “subject to disruption” and are allowing me to rebook for free up to 355 days in advance. My wife and I are the only 2 pax in club and ET fares are at lowest I have seen in 30 years for this route, which once boasted 7 services a day.
  It’s good that BA continue to be flexible in the face of this onslaught from government which seems to have no clue of the impact their decisions are having on carriers, travellers or the economy. Omicron is now here, it’s spreading in the community so once again the stable door closed to late.

  • Andrew says:

    7 Dec7 December 07:13

    Not really – the government responded very quickly as soon as the variant was known. Unless we want to never have the stable door open, then this is what will happen. Can’t have it both ways.

    • meta says:

      7 Dec7 December 07:30

      They didn’t respond quickly. Omicron was discovered on 11 Nov, but government responded two weeks later. Hardly quick. Quick would be the next day.

  • Harry T says:

    7 Dec7 December 07:37

    You can’t close the stable door to variants anyway, so the analogy doesn’t fit 😊. People talk about slowing down the entry of variants into the UK but that also seems fairly silly when as soon as it’s got into the country it will spread freely due to the almost complete lack of restrictions. Vaccines continue to work against real hard outcomes like severe disease, hospitalisation and death; I’ve not seen any convincing evidence that we should shit the bed every time a variant has some spike mutations.

    • Pete M says:

      7 Dec7 December 12:48

      Yup, we are literally back to where we were last year… BER next week has gone down from 5 a day, to which it had slowly been ramping up over months, to 2 – one LHR and one LCY…

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