The HfP chat thread – Tuesday 9th November

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• Andy says:

  9 Nov9 November 11:50

  So I currently have three Amex cards (BA PP, Gold and Nectar.) I applied for a cash back card on the 23rd October and got accepted. However probably due to brain fog from Covid I accidentally applied for the fee paying one. So when it turned up on the 27th October I cancelled it that day with the idea to reapply for the free one. Just tried that now and got rejected for having four cards. I guess the system still hasn’t updated but anyone got any idea how long it takes for the system to update? Almost two weeks after cancelling and it still thinks I have the card does seem strange

  • Youllnever says:

    9 Nov9 November 11:59

    I might be wrong, but I would have that that you’d be able to downgrade to the fee free card since it’s in the same card family.

    • Youllnever says:

      9 Nov9 November 11:59

      *thought

    • BuildBackBetter says:

      9 Nov9 November 12:17

      +1. Call Amex and they might be able to sort it out.

    • Andy says:

      9 Nov9 November 12:19

      Ah yeah, I should have thought of that. They didn’t give me that as an option and it’s two weeks since I cancelled

• Scott says:

  9 Nov9 November 12:00

  BA website seems to be on a go slow at present.
  Loads of people blowing £3.5k on a CW flight to the USA?

• mr_jetlag says:

  9 Nov9 November 12:16

  In the CCR right now and LPGS is on the menu. Any HFP’ers about?

  • Anna says:

    9 Nov9 November 12:26

    Have a glass or two for me darling! Hopefully I will be there in March 🥂🍾

    • mr_jetlag says:

      9 Nov9 November 12:33

      Raising a glass to you and all the regulars Anna!

• Aliks says:

  9 Nov9 November 12:28

  The BA Accelerating Business Amex Card.

  I hit the £5k spend a few weeks ago, but no points appeared on the Amex account. I contacted Amex help desk (chat) and they confirmed I was eligible and should get the bonus. 10 days later still no points

  Today I chatted with Amex again, and they seem to be saying that the bonus/welcome points operate differently for this card. Their back office team say that once the target is achieved, Amex notify BA and then BA add the avios into my BA Exec account.

  Has anyone seen this happen?

  My next monthly bill is due tomorrow, maybe that will sort things out?

  • Rob says:

    9 Nov9 November 13:04

    It’s possible. This card does operate a bit weirdly (eg you can’t refer to it or from it) and I’ve no idea how Amex / OnBusiness are going to handle the extra OnBusiness points from BA flight purchases.

  • Sam G says:

    9 Nov9 November 13:53

    OH is in the same boat as you, just checked and no points. My statement closes in a couple of days as well so I’ll keep an eye at BA directly

  • Ant says:

    9 Nov9 November 15:57

    I got my statement yesterday and there was no mention of the bonus avios on it but when i logged into my avios account this morning, the 60,000 were there and also the 10,000 for spending my first 10,000 avios £20,000 on the card

• John says:

  9 Nov9 November 13:33

  Timing is everything…

  https://m.independent.ie/business/oleary-sells-44m-worth-of-ryanair-shares-41033666.html

  • ken says:

    9 Nov9 November 13:58

    Sold 2.5 million shares.

    Still owns more than 40 million shares plus additional share options.

    His Gigginstown horse operation alone must still cost £5m a year, even being much reduced in size froma couple of years ago.

• Gary says:

  9 Nov9 November 13:36

  Laithwaites spend £100 get £25 back on Amex Plat

• Backpacker says:

  9 Nov9 November 13:42

  Creation – paying out the last lot of Marriott/IHG points after the cards close?
  Has anyone asked them the question yet?
  Cards close on 3 dec, but my statement date is 6 Dec, points post 7-8 dec.
  Unless I get re-assurance, I might as well close the cards early…

  I called to ask, but creation phone line is “not available right now”. I’m glad I don’t have a serious issue like fraud or a blocked transaction! ha ha

  • Britbronco says:

    9 Nov9 November 13:53

    People that have asked have mostly been told that Creation aren’t transferring any points earned after the closure letter.
    I think we just have to wait and see.

    • Anna says:

      9 Nov9 November 14:08

      They haven’t told me they won’t be transferring any points so I’m still happily earning them …

  • Neil Spellings says:

    9 Nov9 November 14:49

    I asked and receive a written response: “Thanks for getting in touch about your IHG account.

    A letter was sent out regarding the closure of your account and the Terms & Conditions stated.

    Points will not be applied to your account.”

    Complaint raised, as I dont see anywhere in their terms and conditions they can stop paying points whilst the account is still open!

    • JDB says:

      9 Nov9 November 15:07

      If you read the points T&Cs that link to/incorporate the IHG Rewards T&Cs they have enormous latitude in respect of points etc. I’m not saying that this is what will ultimately happen, but a lot of people have said it’s not in the T&Cs which is incorrect.

      • Rui N. says:

        9 Nov9 November 15:16

        What’s the guidance when a financial company deliberatly lies to its customers? For example, in this case saying that the closure letter mentions the T&Cs, which is not true. Is there a penalty for them in any decision by regulators, courts, etc.?

        • JDB says:

          9 Nov9 November 15:27

          You would have to get over the hurdle of proving, on the balance of probabilities, that they had “deliberately” lied which might be quite difficult, and then prove whatever damages you claim to have suffered directly as a result. Realistically, in this sort of case which, in the greater scheme of things, is trivial nothing will happen. I know everyone on here disagrees, but I think an independent party looking at this would expect the cardholder to be on notice that things would be different after receipt of the letter.

        • Lee says:

          9 Nov9 November 15:38

          Dose that mean you would be happy that your employee will sit there do nothing once they handed their 3 months note?

        • Rui N. says:

          9 Nov9 November 15:41

          Well, that would be easy to prove. There is correspondence saying that a letter mentions the T&Cs and the letter clearly does not mention them. The damage is also clear. They now claim that from receiving the letter the customers already knew exactly what would happen from that point onwards. But since they now claim that they warned the customers on the initial letter, clearly they felt the need to make up that the customers were informed from the beginning. If the letter was clear on what would happen they would not need to lie now and say that it was clear in the letter. They can’t have it both ways, either the letter was clear and they didn’t need to say anything else afterwards, or the letter was not clear and they needed to pretend that the letter said things that were not there.

        • JDB says:

          9 Nov9 November 15:43

          @Lee – that’s employment law, rather a different matter!

        • Lee says:

          9 Nov9 November 15:57

          @JDB I think that’s nothing to do with any law but common sense. How cardholder to be on notice that things would be different after receipt of the letter when you tell them nothing

        • Rui N. says:

          9 Nov9 November 16:04

          @Lee, and clearly they know that customers had to be informed, as they now claim that they have informed them. Otherwise they would have no incentive to lie. Maybe they thought that people would just throw the letter away? We have also had reports here from Creation lying during FOS processes and then having to backtrack when evidence proving the lie was added to the process (in the case reported here, a recording of a phone call). So, there’s a record here of them trying to get away with lies (and then being caught).

        • JDB says:

          9 Nov9 November 16:05

          @Lee it’s precisely common sense that should alert you to the fact that things might not be the same in the 60 days period. It seems blindingly obvious and the law provides for ‘obvious’ even if something isn’t spelt out.

        • Rui N. says:

          9 Nov9 November 16:14

          Why would it be obvious?! The letter simply states the card will be closed. It does not mention any changes to any terms, nor does it mention that the card has been closed because of any issues on the part of the customers. Why would it be obvious that Creation would stop honouring the contract from that point onwards? If the customer received the letter and went to the website and saw that Creation was not accepting any new customers (they started again today, apparently), they could simply think that Creation was closing all cards. In that case, why would the customer assume that anything would be different in the following 60 days? That’s anything but obvious.

        • Anna says:

          9 Nov9 November 16:17

          Having applied the law for nearly three decades, I can assure you that common sense has no legal status whatsoever. “You should have known” means absolutely nothing in any court in the land, criminal or civil. I fully expect the Ts and Cs of the cards to be honoured up to the closure date, and that would be the case even if Creation had stated otherwise in the letter they sent out about the account closures, which they didn’t.
          Companies can’t just decide to abandon their Ts and Cs whenever they feel like it.

        • JDB says:

          9 Nov9 November 18:08

          @Anna I’m afraid that the Supreme Court disagrees with your analysis of the law!

          See:-
          Marks and Spencer plc (Appellant) v BNP Paribas Securities Services Trust Company (Jersey) Limited and another (Respondents) [2015] UKSC 72

          It is particularly relevant in B2B contracts (and allied to implied vs express contract terms) rather than consumer ones, but the essence is that contracts cannot be expected to spell out every single thing. In this instance I cannot see a) how common sense (and experience) tells you that all will be normal in the 60 day notice period and b) the terms clearly do allow points to be withheld or removed; they give the firm huge latitude. I think you are just reading the two pages terms, not the incorporated full IHG Rewards terms. I am not saying that’s how it will end, but ignoring the facts and hoping for the best seems optimistic.

        • Char Char says:

          9 Nov9 November 18:57

          “would expect the cardholder to be on notice that things would be different after receipt of the letter.”

          Anyone ever had an annual gym membership terminated and given 60 days notice that its being terminated, then you turn up at the gym and can’t get through to use the services due to the fact the barrier scans your card and says valid membership but won’t open and let you in?

          You ask for your free annual guest passes that are given out with your membership and now the computer says no due to membership being cancelled, oh you are in month 3 of 12, sorry no refund…..

          “it’s precisely common sense that should alert you to the fact that things might not be the same in the 60 days period. It seems blindingly obvious and the law provides for ‘obvious’ even if something isn’t spelt out.”

          It seems blindingly obvious that unless it is stated in the letter why on earth would anyone expect their points not to be posted, I would like to do a poll and see how many of those who received the letter then expected the points not to post…..

          If the majority of customer did expect to see their points then it is clearly not “blindingly obvious”.

        • Anna says:

          9 Nov9 November 19:41

          @JDB you cannot seriously be suggesting that not expecting “every single thing” to be covered is the same as Creation withdrawing all benefits from use of its cards without even notifying the account holders? I would suggest that is actually a pretty massive thing.

      • r* says:

        9 Nov9 November 20:34

        IMO the suggestion that it should be understood that things would change after getting a closure is absurd. They send a letter saying they will close the acct in 60 days with no reason given. It couldve been that they are closing down for all we know so why would there be any reason to think that points would no longer be issued?

    • Lady London says:

      9 Nov9 November 17:10

      Amateurs.

  • Chris says:

    9 Nov9 November 15:25

    I decided to take them on yesterday and they said points aren’t being transferred after the letter came out. They claim the letter stated as such, I obviously pointed out it said no such thing.

    They then asked me if I wanted to make an official complaint. So I thought why not, when asked about my desired outcome I just said the points that I’ve earned

    I also pointed out that if they’d made a unilateral decision to stop awarding points, by law they’d have had to notify me in writing (which they haven’t) and maybe fix their website and app which is still calculating and telling me how many points will be transferred this month

    • Anna says:

      9 Nov9 November 16:19

      I’m so glad I’ve kept hold of our letters – how stupid are they?!

      • Rui N. says:

        9 Nov9 November 16:32

        We’ve heard the other day that they simply made up stuff to the FOS and denied to have recordings of the calls that contradicted what they were saying. What that colleague of ours taught us is: keep record of everything you discuss with Creation, including recording any calls to them. I also have screenshots of my account showing that I am still collecting points (all 84 of them so far!), just in case they stop including that info on the statements.

    • flyoff says:

      9 Nov9 November 18:00

      I spoke to Creation and the customer service agent agreed that the closures have not been handled well due in part to the lack of information supplied in the letter and customers were relaint on phoning to hear what the customer service teams had been briefed. I have been charged the annual fee since receiving the letter, which they say won’t be refunded, but the points have not been transferred. This seems very one sided. I was asked to state what I would see as a resolutoin when I email my complaint letter.

      • Char Char says:

        9 Nov9 November 19:02

        I can’t see any independent party seeing that extra charge as reasonable or warranted regardless of their “terms and conditions”. Creation are fools.

  • Yorkie Aid says:

    9 Nov9 November 20:12

    JDB – I listen to your arguments with great interest normally because they do provide a good counterbalance to the emotional views of many posters on here. However I don’t think it’s helpful citing a Supreme Court judgment about a lease where common law aspects peculiar to rent have been used in making the judgment. I don’t see how this has any relevance to contract law between Creation and its customers. However it was a nice touch citing a case that actually involved BNP! 🙂

    • JDB says:

      9 Nov9 November 21:03

      @ Yorkie Aid I didn’t say the “obvious” issue applied to this specific Creation but @Anna said that the whole thing re “obvious” was nonsense and she is quite wrong on that; it is something applied regularly in civil contract disputes and the Supreme Court agrees with previous judgments “[p]rima facie that which in any contract is left to be implied and need not be expressed is something so obvious that it goes without saying”.

      In relation to this case, personally I think it was a big assumption that all would remain normal and the terms do explicitly allow for them to remove points. I have no idea if they really will in the end, but it is provided for so people must be at risk. If there is a dispute, the context will be an important factor and that will work differently for different people.

      • Anna says:

        9 Nov9 November 21:16

        @JDB, I said no such thing – what I said was that “common sense” has no legal status, to be precise. This is mainly because everyone’s idea of what this is is going to be different, which is clearly impossible to legislate for. Tell me again how Creation writing letters which contain no mention whatsoever of benefits being withdrawn, then withdrawing those benefits is “so obvious that it goes without saying?”

        • JDB says:

          9 Nov9 November 21:34

          “common sense” in a commercial context has also been determined by the Supreme Court! It does have a legal status and is applied all the time, as is “obvious”. Apologies for paraphrasing your post, but I will still go with Lord Neuberger’s view of the law.

          It may not be something that interests you, but it is worth listening to or reading Lord Neuberger or even more so Lord Sumption for their incredible clarity of thought and precise use of language.

        • PQTR says:

          10 Nov10 November 06:19

          @JDB – cases about implication of terms and the officious bystander test are so not germane to the situation it beggars belief you think it sensible to mention them.

          You’re seeking to imply a term into a contract that says, in effect – during the notice period, one party need not fulfil certain obligations.

          This isn’t something that an officious bystander would say “oh but of course that’s the case” (see, eg, the gym example above, or consider alternately: (a) if I have give. notice or cancellation of a fee-paying card, I’d expect to pay any fee during that notice; or (b)if I give notice of cancellation of a lease, I expect to be able to live in the property during that period and similarly to have to pay rent. The officious bystander term would be the exact converse of that you propose, ie parties obligations remain the same during a notice period unless otherwise stated.

          Any term or provision the parties want to function differently during a notice period should be spelled out as such (and often is in commercial contracts).

          Your argument is tantamount to having a zero day notice period. It’s ludicrous and not supported by case law. You’ve cherry picked something from a completely different context.

      • Froggee says:

        9 Nov9 November 21:24

        I cannot see in the terms I have that they can remove points. It says they can go negative on returns. Only on the white card do they explicitly say they can remove them and that is when it is closed within six months of being opened.

        • JDB says:

          9 Nov9 November 21:39

          @Froggee in the two page rewards terms it says “Points accrued and rewards issued are subject to the terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club. Please see http://www.ihgrewardsclub.com for full terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club.” If you follow that link, it sets out the full terms to which you have previously agreed. I have no idea how they might be applied in practice, but the terms explicitly give them carte blanche. As I have said previously, I don’t have a dog in the race, it is just of considerable academic interest, but if I were involved, I am not sure I would keep hoping it will be alright on the night.

        • Char Char says:

          9 Nov9 November 22:00

          IHG is not Creation that is obvious.

        • SteveJ says:

          9 Nov9 November 22:23

          I had the cancellation letter. After which my mid October statement was issued, from which all points earned (even those after the cancellation letter) happily transferred into my IHG account in late Oct. And I told all those interested (here and offline) of this fact. Therefore, my mid November statement I still expect points to post, ad there is nothing to suggest otherwise, in fact their posting of the October points positively confirms that nothing has changed since the letter was issued.

          That will be the basis of my complaint should my Nov points not post. Happy for others to share my fact pattern, as that behaviour did nothing to suggest that business would not continue as usual in the notice period.

          Oh, and I’m such a great customer they also sent me a credit limit increase, so I’m definitely in good standing.

        • Froggee says:

          9 Nov9 November 22:41

          Agree with Char Char. All this says is that once I’ve earned points they come under the remit of IHG (well Six Continents Hotels). Where, on earth, in law is Creation allowed to command IHG to shut down accounts or claw back points? Indeed if they did so (or tried to do so) they would be on incredibly sketchy ground.

      • Yorkie Aid says:

        9 Nov9 November 23:23

        JDB – Thank you for the clarification

        • Yorkie Aid says:

          9 Nov9 November 23:28

          +1 SteveJ – I had exactly the same and my October points were credited to IHG about 10 days after the statement date. I have also been taking screenshots regularly this month from the Creation website where it states “points earned” just in case.

• Anuj says:

  9 Nov9 November 14:03

  PAW offering 25x points at tesco selected locations, wonder if it works for giftcards. Bit of a risk to try any substantial amount though..

  • YC says:

    9 Nov9 November 14:42

    Anyone found any stacking opps. on this?

    • Reney says:

      9 Nov9 November 16:26

      1. use a points earning credit card
      2. preferable a credit card with a intro bonus
      3. Tesco currently selling £50 christmassy gift cards that give you an extra £5 to spend in January which is a 10% bonus
      4. At my tesco, tesco gift cards earn points when you buy them and when you spend them.

      Does this count?

      • YC says:

        9 Nov9 November 16:30

        Thanks – good tip the christmassy gift cards. Undecided if i will make the trek! Very good offer for those with a tesco nearby

  • Reney says:

    9 Nov9 November 16:23

    I’ll you when it posts…

    • Reney says:

      9 Nov9 November 16:24

      sorry that was supposed to say I’ll tell you when it posts. It works for Morrison’s so I assume it will work the same for Tesco.

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