The HfP chat thread – Thursday 7th October

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Mark says:

7 Oct7 October 02:14

Really need help. Landed into Luton tonight. When I got home realised that I left a piece of luggage on the carousel. Tried calling ltn lost property but obviously not open. Sent an email enquiry.
Does anyone know what the procedure is. Do I need to go pick it up? Will they even have it? Will they post it to me?
Thanks so much anyone for any info
- The Hunter says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 06:09
  
  “ If you’ve left something in the airport including duty free please contact the airport’s Lost Property office. The general information desk will be able to direct you to the Lost Property office.”
  - The Hunter says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 06:12
    
    They’re likely to have it I’d have thought – must happen a fair bit. They’ll probably courier if you pay.
- J says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 08:19
  
  Not quite the same, but I left my coat on the plane once. They posted it to me for about £15.
  - Nick says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 08:49
    
    If you go back to the airport today they’ll have stored it and will be able to give it back to you. There will be a local process, it varies slightly by airport. It may take a while as you’ll have to be escorted back to the baggage hall and that usually means being security searched (you need to clear it through customs yourself if an international arrival) but it’s definitely possible. For reference BA keeps bags 3 days locally before moving them anywhere (happens far more often than you think!).
Si says:

7 Oct7 October 06:03

Re. Creation IHG free night cert.

Called Creation CS yesterday to ask if my IHG black card would auto-renewal even though card is closing on 3rd Dec. Turns out tomorrow is my renewal date and they said if did not cancel today, I would be charged the £99 as normal (which obviously I’m not keen to do).

I asked about my free night cert from this year and was told they had stopped issuing them. I called twice and both CS staff read from an internal memo that stated that no more certs would be issued due to a “recent business decision” and cited a clause in their T&Cs.

This is very different from what had previously been said on HfP when they issued the A/C closure letters. Anyone know factually which is correct? They offered me a call back from management within 48hrs but they said they will probably just say same thing as everyone received same memo email.

I’m thinking I’ll keep the account open until I [hopefully] received my cert on/around 22 Oct, as have read previously if don’t spend on account in that time, I can retrospectively close the renewal(?).

At worst they take the £99 and I don’t receive my cert. At least I’ve def had far more than the additional £99 worth of value this year so not really losing out and willing to take the gamble
- Anna says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 06:26
  
  Another reader posted that Creation told them the £99 fee wasn’t going to be charged between now and 3/12 (and that therefore no more free nights would be issued) so it sounds as though CS aren’t clear at all about what’s going on.
  Did they specify which clause in the Ts and Cs it was? I doubt very much that they have carte blanche to override customer rights by making a “business decision”, especially as they haven’t even given any official notification of what this actually means.
  I guess we’ll all find out more in the next couple of months!
- Memesweeper says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 08:06
  
  I’ve already sent my demand for my free night before account closure, marked “letter before action”. If we think, as some do, they are about to quit the UK market I’m not going to waste any time getting this refusal to honour free nights as contractually agreed in front of a judge.
  - JDB says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 08:14
    
    @Memesweeper a judge will rely upon a strict reading of the T&Cs, not any FCA ‘fairness’ principles which the FOS can consider, so on that basis you would lose. Have you checked the original Rewards T&Cs (not the credit agreement ones) that you originally signed? That is what FOS or Court will look at. Although the issue here is that Creation closed the account, not you, the FOS already has a published decision that spending £10k is only one element of earning the voucher per the T&Cs; the spend on its own is not enough. I’m not giving a view, but do check all the detail carefully before you issue any claim or appeal to the FOS once you have a final complaint decision.
    - TGLoyalty says:
      
      7 Oct7 October 08:21
      
      You’re wrong.
    - TGLoyalty says:
      
      7 Oct7 October 08:24
      
      Look up “Contra proferentem” re consumer rights and why T&C’s should be fair.
      
      fact creation is closing the product is a slam dunk for compo (a judge can’t award a voucher so I’d pick cash rate at the sort of IHG hotel you stay at normally high end Kimpton/IC etc)
      
      Anyway Creation is a financial institution and therefore would take them to FOS which costs you nil and them £750 a pop.
      - JDB says:
        
        7 Oct7 October 08:33
        
        Have you read actually the full T&Cs (not just the headlines, the error the FOS of the consumer cited in that previous decision)? I am fully aware of ‘contra preferentem’ but that only applies if there is an ambiguity in a contract term that should then be found in favour of the consumer. There is no ambiguity in the terms.
    - Anna says:
      
      7 Oct7 October 08:34
      
      But we have cases where people have earned the free night then cancelled the card and not incurred the next £99 (or had it refunded), so Creation can’t argue that it’s applying its terms fairly, even if this is the case.
      - Anna says:
        
        7 Oct7 October 08:36
        
        I’ve taken a screenshot of my most recent use of the free night certificate, to book a studio at the Kimpton Seafire at $900+ per night. This isn’t even the most expensive rate as it’s for next July, which is low season there.
      - JDB says:
        
        7 Oct7 October 08:45
        
        Anna, you may well be right. I was pointing out to Memesweeper that the Court cannot look at that fairness issue, even if the FOS can, so he is getting a little ahead of himself in his hurry to get this in front of a judge. I too can see that it looks unfair, but on the other hand it is clear that spending £10k alone doesn’t earn you the voucher, so the only issue the FOS (per previous decisions) has to consider is whether the T&Cs can essentially be overridden in the interests of fairness if the credit company is the one that closes the account. I’m not sure that this is as black and white as some hope.
  - Memesweeper says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 09:07
    
    The court can look at the overall fairness of the T&Cs. This is in the consumer rights act, and there’s no way they can take the money for a year’s service and provide a few months and keep the cash. It won’t wash, I’m 100% sure of that.
    
    What MCOL won’t look at is FOS fairness in handling things like a decision to close an account. Much less likely to win on that, granted, but that’s not why I’m threatening to sue them.
    - JDB says:
      
      7 Oct7 October 09:16
      
      The court will not look at the overall fairness of the T&Cs; the judge will simply determine what the T&Cs mean and they are unfortunately quite clear. Apart from that being what the county court does, the judge simply doesn’t have the time. As I said to Anna, the only issue to be decided is whether not reaching your anniversary date because Creation (rather than you) cancelled your account complies with the terms (and for the FOS, if that is fair). Although I know some people’s experience is different, the FOS has previously determined that spending £10k + having an active account at anniversary + paying the next fee are what, in combination, trigger the voucher; you need all three. That is what the FOS says the T&Cs say, not me.
- Dave says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 08:33
  
  Wow that’s pretty outrageous Si! Rob, I don’t suppose you can get formal clarification from IHG or Creation? Not issuing already earned free nights and then still charging a fee is terrible behaviour
  - Rob says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 09:05
    
    I very much doubt this will happen.
    - Memesweeper says:
      
      7 Oct7 October 09:13
      
      I suspect what’s actually happened is some senior exec has realised that his/her firm has lost a lot of money when someone else (NS&I) explained it to them. They then had a screaming fit along the lines of “close all those accounts now and give those b**stard Curve users nothing!!!!”. I think Rob is right, a more measured approach to closedown will be taken soon – what they’re telling us now is incompatible with good corporate behaviour and the law. I’m just not taking any chances in case of a rapid shutdown.
      - JDB says:
        
        7 Oct7 October 09:21
        
        They may well opt for the easy life. This is being managed above Solihull so either they will cough up or they will have a strong case, possibly with some regulatory cover. In respect of ‘fairness’, as that is a subjective decision, any facts Creation decide to reveal will be considered as well. You say “good corporate behaviour and the law” etc. There is no breach of the law, simply strict application of terms. I’m not saying that is right, but cases are often lost when the strength of you case is hidden by bad or muddled argument.
      - David says:
        
        7 Oct7 October 13:05
        
        @JDB, in what way is this being managed above Solihull? Genuinely interested as you seem much more grounded as some other commentators and appear to have some awareness of what has been going on behind the scenes.
- Lady London says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 12:28
  
  Creation are setting themselves up for legal action on at least 2 points here which I hope someone has the b*lls to take them to court for. Others similarly mistreated by Creation, which will be thousands, literally, amongst their cardholders, will hopefully gain the courage to get similar recovery from Creation.
  
  Is Creation a French company? Being in and out of France over the years I’ve noticed a very poor orientation towards consumer protection in France. Particularly in the case of large well-established companies and surprisingly, ex-Government semi-natural monopolies (such as telecom).
  
  I have confidence that even the slightest brush with the British legal system, once invoked, (even just by online mcol for breach of contraxt, unfair contract terms or secondarily via FCA/FOS for breach of Treating Customers Fairly (for some), will sort Creation out for their incompetence, arrogance and misbehaviour. Hopefully at great cost and inconvenience getting worn down claim by claim (statute of limitations is 6 years).
- John says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 13:13
  
  I’ve not even had a letter – I have to assume as it’s nearly a week than I’m unaffected…
J says:

7 Oct7 October 06:34

Surely they can’t legally do that? I mean, presumably they’d be entitled to give notice that they were withdrawing the free night cert as a benefit, starting from next card anniversary (if anyone’s left by then), but unilaterally declining to honour an already-earned benefit would be tantamount to, what, fraud? Theft? Breach of contract? It’s certainly not treating customers fairly, I would have thought.

What exactly does the T&Cs clause they referred to say?
- J says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 06:34
  
  Grrr that was meant to be a reply to Si.
  - CJ says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 09:17
    
    The T&C may allow them to take payment upfront then close the account for “business reasons” without providing the service. That’s why we have the Consumer Rights Act 2015, which takes precedence over the contract terms and requires the court to consider whether the contract terms are fair to the consumer.
    - JDB says:
      
      7 Oct7 October 09:32
      
      It is the terms of the Rewards that apply in respect of the free night, not the CCA1974 terms.
      - John says:
        
        7 Oct7 October 10:22
        
        Correct, but nobody mentioned the Consumer Credit Act 1974.
        
        Creation’s terms cannot override the Consumer Rights Act 2015
      - JDB says:
        
        7 Oct7 October 10:38
        
        @John there are two technically separate but linked contracts here. It is Creation’s T&Cs re closure that simply reiterate the law in CCA1974 so they are on totally solid ground there. In respect of the voucher, a strict reading says you don’t get it, so you fall back on FCA fairness (technically ? whether CRA2015 would apply). The FOS had previously made a determination as to what triggers the voucher so there is only a small further decision to make, namely whether closure of your account by the business can still mean you don’t have an active account at the anniversary date for these specific purposes. I’m not giving a view, simply saying there is more to it than all the noise. It’s less than a week since the letters, so it’s still very early to get overexcited; I’m sure a proper solution / decision will emerge in time. Best to wait so as to have all the facts before complaining if there is ultimately something to complaint about. I see there seems to be less fuss now about the fee?!
- Lady London says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 12:43
  
  Even a partial earned night they would have to give pro rata compensation for, I am sure.
  
  For normal users who have generally respected the terms, I am sure.
  
  If someone’s caned it for MS then they probably wouldn’t get the full pro rata refund of fees and the full pro rata value earned of the free night according to spend. Others will, it’s a no-brainer in the case of unilateral account closure.
  
  Even if their contract terms theoreically permit such mistreatment they’d be thrown out as unfair.
Ian M says:

7 Oct7 October 06:34

Hey all,

If you buy a bottle of champagne at an airport duty free and have them put it into one of those sealed bags, are you allowed to take it on to your next flight the following day in your hand luggage if it’s kept inside the sealed bag?
- Andrew says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 06:39
  
  My understanding is that those bags are for transfer flights only and standard landslide to airside security won’t allow that through.
  - Ian M says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 06:43
    
    Thanks Andrew
- Michael C says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 06:46
  
  I remember doing an IST–MUC-BCN and having to go through security again in MUC when transferring: everyone who’d bought drinks at IST airport had to dump them.
  - Anna says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 06:55
    
    It does vary by airport, on transit through LHR they are generally fine about it, but I recall at SYD my OH had a (very expensive) can of deodorant confiscated, even though he had a receipt showing he had just bought it in an airport shop AND it was in a sealed bag!
    - Ian M says:
      
      7 Oct7 October 07:02
      
      Thanks guys, sounds like it’s not worth the risk with a good bottle of champagne. I don’t fancy having to swig it down at security before going for a flight!
      - ChrisC says:
        
        7 Oct7 October 07:25
        
        This is very often country / airport dependent so check on the connecting airports involved website.
        
        I’ve found the assistants in most airside shops I’ve been in know the rules on which airports allow it and which don’t and will ask if the destination on your ticket is your final destination or not and give you either a STEB, an ordinary bag or won’t sell it at all depending on the answer.
  - Dominic says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 09:09
    
    Dump them?
    
    Surely that’s the perfect moment for a student style downing session?
- Jonathan says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 08:03
  
  Depends whether or not the shop at the airport offers liquid security bags, fully see-thru with a red line near the perimeter of the bag, airport security won’t seize any items if they’re in these bags, and you have a receipt in the bag that matches what’s in the bag
  
  I would’ve brought some duty free on an aircraft once, but I was on a connecting flight, and they didn’t have any, so had to give up the idea
  - Anna says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 08:37
    
    I’ve just cited an example of when they did exactly this!
    - Nick says:
      
      7 Oct7 October 08:55
      
      As detailed above, it varies by airport. MUC clearly has a strict policy. LHR will allow it IF the contents match the receipt AND there’s no suspicion of tampering AND the receipt is dated either the same day or the day prior. They won’t allow it if it’s a week old, for example (and yes they do check, particularly if at landside security rather than FCC). But it is allowed. What we don’t know though is where the OP intended to do this.
      - Gavin says:
        
        7 Oct7 October 09:58
        
        https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/25/woman-downs-whole-bottle-of-cognac-at-beijing-airport-security-control
        
        Reminds me of this story!
      - Beardless Hipster says:
        
        7 Oct7 October 10:20
        
        Virgin Atlantic have the duty free liquid restrictions on their website https://help.virginatlantic.com/gb/en/baggage/duty-free-liquid-restrictions.html
- Andrew H says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 09:14
  
  Wondering if they still sell Swiss Army knives at Swiss airports…?
  - John says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 10:25
    
    Yes but you won’t be able to take it on any connecting flight where you pass through security again
Rosie says:

7 Oct7 October 06:56

Has anyone done the sandwich trick in Vegas ? does it work ? Staying at the Bellagio In Jan, not sure if I should give it ago
- mradey says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 07:04
  
  Always worth a try. Not sure what the current cost of a sandwich is. $20 used to be fine, nowadays and depending on length of stay, you may need a more expensive platter.
- Gareth says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 07:05
  
  Do it every time and worked 4 out 5 times. Worst case they just give you it back. Just ask if any potential complimentary upgrades after giving the money/passport. They may say something out loud like ‘I see you have booked a suite, or I see you have a fountain view booked’ even though you don’t just say yes I do.
  - Rosie says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 07:07
    
    Cheers m, How much do you normally offer / show
    - Manya says:
      
      7 Oct7 October 07:12
      
      $20 Worked for me at Mirage. $50 didn’t do anything for me at Wynn, although the attendant was kind enough to hand it back as he couldn’t provide any additional benefits.
      
      I think there’s a website where people log their recent successes along with hotels/amounts.
    - Gareth says:
      
      7 Oct7 October 07:42
      
      Depends on length of stay. I consider it to be my first ‘gamble’ of the trip so prepared to get nothing. 3 nights or longer it’s 50$ I try
- Jonathan says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 07:47
  
  What’s the sandwich trick ?
  - ChrisC says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 07:53
    
    You slip money between your credit card and passport and hope the desk agent will upgrade you in return for the bribe.
    
    Note that many hotels don’t permit this and have sacked staff who do this and they also have systems that alert management when desk staff change rooms without apparent justification.
- TheThunderer says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 08:12
  
  Worked well for me at the bellagio last time but it was in 2010. Also worked at the Aria in 2016.
  - DI says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 09:07
    
    Back where I am from this is called a bribe.
    - Manya says:
      
      7 Oct7 October 09:51
      
      It’s common place in Vegas. I tipped heavily ($20) when picking up a car at the Hertz outlet and was given a convertible mustang which I think was a 3 tier upgrade from what I had booked.
    - Chris says:
      
      7 Oct7 October 10:15
      
      It’s not a bribe because whenever I’ve ever done it it’s pretty up front and honest. They make a show of the money to the cameras and leave it on the counter. if they can upgrade you, you get a thank you and the pocket the note, if they can’t you get an apology and your cash handed back
      
      It’s just an extension of America’s tipping culture, it’s just more formalised in Vegas than elsewhere, e.g. I’ve never even considered trying it any other city, but always do in Vegas.
      
      That said last time I was there in 2019, they’d moved to fully electronic check in, so no way to slip a $20 into the machine 😂
      - John says:
        
        7 Oct7 October 10:26
        
        The only problem is that some Americans try it when they come to Europe
      - andyT says:
        
        7 Oct7 October 12:14
        
        It’s still bribery and corruption.
- Harry T says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 09:53
  
  Haha this is great. Hadn’t heard of it before!
- Optimus Prime says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 12:48
  
  Worked for me at the Cosmopolitan in 2019.
- Jimmy says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 15:15
  
  Worked at the Bellagio in Feb 2019. Got upgraded to a fountain view room for a week. Worth every cent of that $20
BuildBackBetter says:

7 Oct7 October 07:20

Has anyone managed to switch the current account from Tesco to another bank? Reading some reports of Tesco blocking the switch.
- Toddy says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 07:36
  
  Yes, switched to Nationwide.
  Tesco did have a message on their website advising people not to switch (due to high volumes) but this was removed.
- Genghis says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 08:11
  
  Yep. I switched out to Lloyds for a ton.
- Ming the Merciless says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 14:52
  
  We’ve got till the end of November? I should clear another 60k points as Q3 closes end of October
  - BuildBackBetter says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 14:57
    
    Wow, 60k points. You are really merciless.
James says:

7 Oct7 October 07:23

Am I correct in thinking the 2500 tier points required for the upgrade voucher with BA Gold is now 1875 taking the 25% reduction into account? Thanks.
Mark Peterborough says:

7 Oct7 October 07:27

Regarding the Sainsbury Nectar count up to Christmas promotion :
One part of my challenge is to earn 500 points by booking train tickets with GWR, Avanti West Coast or TransPennine Express and have my Nectar card linked to my account. The conditions state that a minimum purchase of £1 must be made, there is no reference to it having to be a train operated by the train company that runs the website . A child ticket between Maidstone West and Maidstone Barracks is £1.10 on the Avanti West Coast booking site , might be worth a punt.
- ChrisC says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 07:50
  
  Not had the Christmas promo appear yet.
  
  Personally I would buy a ticket for a trip involving one of the operators services rather than one just via their website.
  
  When Virgin had the West Coast Main Line it had to be a ticket on one of their services not just one bought off their websites and it caught a few people out.
  
  You can get a TPE child ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to a Manchester Oxford Road for £1.20 for example.
  - Mark Peterborough says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 07:53
    
    Thanks , for the extra 10p that’s worth it as it is a TPE service .
  - CarpalTravel says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 09:36
    
    Update your app (applies to both iOS and Android) – I had to do that yesterday to get it to appear.
    - ChrisC says:
      
      7 Oct7 October 09:51
      
      yeah had to delete and download again.
      
      wonder how many people will missout because they didn’t know to do it.
      - CarpalTravel says:
        
        7 Oct7 October 11:47
        
        My well mildly well used Nectar account requires a lot more spends to gain the extra 100 points than player 2′ relatively new card.
        
        P1 Target 1 = 750
        P2 Target 1 = 300
- ChrisBCN says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 08:13
  
  Nectar won’t actually know who operates the train, only who you booked it through. Also, in many cases, the cost of a ticket is even spread across multiple operators anyway.
  - ChrisC says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 08:26
    
    It’s the train company that tells nectar to give you the points and they know who operated the train.
    
    Last week I booked Avanti tickets and got the nectar points. I went nowhere near Nectar to do the booking.
  - Save East Coast Rewards says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 08:33
    
    Beware Avanti still operates Nectar points using the rules Virgin had which means you’ll only get points if your journey is at least partially on an Avanti train.
    
    The original FirstGroup franchises like GWR offer Nectar points on all journeys regardless of operator.
- Super Secret Stuff says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 09:25
  
  I think it generally has to be operated by the TOC
- Nectar Collector says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 09:58
  
  Noticed that the headline reward says 500 bonus points but when you click on the More Details button it then says 100 bonus points, which obviously wouldn’t be worth it. Hopefully the 500 points is correct!
- Andrew says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 10:26
  
  You do realise that 500 points is only worth £2.50? So taking off the £1.10 doesn’t leave your with much!
  - ChrisC says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 13:08
    
    every little helps!
    
    and yes I do know that’s another supermarkets slogan!
  - Ed says:
    
    7 Oct7 October 13:08
    
    I can’t see a minimum ticket price on my offers. Likewise I have both the 500 and 100 points conflicting info.
- Mikeact says:
  
  7 Oct7 October 17:05
  
  Small print says buy an Advance ticket etc..does that mean next week or a proper Advance ticket ?