The HfP chat thread – Monday 4th October

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MattB says:

4 Oct4 October 10:06

Is the flight within 48 hours?
- Amy C says:
  
  4 Oct4 October 10:11
  
  It will be in 3 minutes. Is that the reason? It says in the email I can do this within 72 hours.
- Amy C says:
  
  4 Oct4 October 10:17
  
  Thanks, it’s worked now!
AL says:

4 Oct4 October 10:13

It’s that time again! Same day London or Manchester PCR test recommendations welcome, please… need to prove I’m fit to travel!
- Anna says:
  
  4 Oct4 October 11:14
  
  Collinson at Manchester airport was the only one we found which absolutely guaranteed to get the results back the same day, for a premium of course!
  - AL says:
    
    4 Oct4 October 13:32
    
    Cheers Anna!
Chrism20 says:

4 Oct4 October 10:28

My BP>Avios auto convert has occurred overnight. Email from BP confirming it’s been done.

All very efficient
Ian M says:

4 Oct4 October 10:38

Looking for a test at home PCR test to issue a fit to fly certificate for my mum. Any recommendations for companies that send the tests out quickly? She would need to receive the test on or before Wednesday
WS says:

4 Oct4 October 10:48

Quick question re the Amex IDC card – recently set one up in order to do a transfer from my Gold MR balance (with the aim of doing a 1:1 transfer to Krisflyer). Does anyone have data points on how long it usually takes? Amex have advised the standard timings are 2 weeks for the transfer to IDC and another 2 weeks for IDC to Krisflyer, which would be cutting it quite close to when I need to book my flights. Thanks in advance!
- Memesweeper says:
  
  4 Oct4 October 11:39
  
  Mine took about five days for UK to ICC and another five for ICC to Kris. Nailbiting stuff as I watched my preferred redemption stay available! Booked a Qatar refundable as a backup while I waited.
  - meta says:
    
    4 Oct4 October 12:06
    
    The first time it’s longer. 3 days for me then overnight IDC to Krisflyer. Second time overnight UK MR to ICC then overnight to Krisflyer.
    - WS says:
      
      4 Oct4 October 16:20
      
      Thanks both! Will continue to check the balance everyday then. Also great suggestion memesweeper re qatar backup, will consider that if it continues to take a while. I’ve actually got an existing Qatar booking from last year but the dates were set on the assumption of no quarantine and they’re not letting me change those now without paying a horrendous fare difference.
BuildBackBetter says:

4 Oct4 October 10:59

As the latest Marriott promo is based on stays, would there be a problem booking alternate nights between OH and I at the same hotel for a short stay?
- AL says:
  
  4 Oct4 October 11:12
  
  2.1.d “Qualifying Stays” of https://www.marriott.com/loyalty/terms/default.mi applies here. The rules are similar to that of Hilton, if you’re au fait with theirs.
  
  In short, a stay is any trip (of up to three rooms) where you personally pay for and stay at a participating property for which the room is billed to you (or your company, but that doesn’t appear to apply here). If you check out and check back in within 24 hours, that’s deemed to be one single stay.
  
  The “personally pay for” bit is easy in your case – you’re only paying for a night every other night (I assume and, if not, that’s easily fixed via an out-of-band transfer to your OH), but the “stays in” is harder. Mind, I’m not sure how they’d prove that…
  - Freddy says:
    
    4 Oct4 October 17:57
    
    If they join up the bookings then you won’t get the extra points…the alternative is to check in and out multiple times which would be a major pain. They spend yonks with check in at the best of times let alone with this complication
Anna says:

4 Oct4 October 11:12

The IHG/Creation thread has been cast into the bowels of HFP now but someone posted that they’ve been told they won’t get another free night certificate, even if they spend £10k before the card closes.
I feel very strongly about this and will definitely be submitting complaints on behalf of both myself and my OH. Creation can argue, if they like, about what kind of spend counts for the free night, but they will then have to explain why they have been happily issuing free nights on the same spending patterns for the last few years.
- stevenhp1987 says:
  
  4 Oct4 October 11:26
  
  +1
  
  I’ve booked my first free night (applied a month or two before it was removed from the market last year!) for 2 weeks time. Kimpton Paris which is going for around €500 a night.
  
  I’ll be using that as the basis for the value of the free night if they want to issue it as cash instead!
- JDB says:
  
  4 Oct4 October 11:28
  
  Anna, you should read FOS decision DRN2242979. The only issue is whether it matters who cancels, but in principle the FOS says that even if you reach £10k, it is the anniversary and payment of the next annual that actually triggers the free night. I put this on that thread as well as the question re the Amex PRG – that if either party cancelled the card before the anniversary date + fee payment (after spending the £15k to earn the 10k MR bonus) would Amex pay the bonus?
  - Genghis says:
    
    4 Oct4 October 11:32
    
    Could you please post a link to this FOS decision? I can’t find anything online.
    From the Curve discussion, it seems this concerns the claimant wanting the voucher early, not on the card anniversary, which is a completely different scenario.
    - stevenhp1987 says:
      
      4 Oct4 October 11:39
      
      A quick search on the FOS website: https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/files/64654/DRN2242979.pdf
    - JDB says:
      
      4 Oct4 October 12:08
      
      It is clearly a different scenario, but if you read Creation’s position and carefully the Ombudsman decision, there are clear parallels. In principle, it really shouldn’t matter who cancels, as simply reaching the £10k isn’t enough. Genghis, I don’t have answer, but it is definitively grey and not as clear cut as you hope.
  - stevenhp1987 says:
    
    4 Oct4 October 11:35
    
    Actually paying the next years fee is not what triggers the bonus.
    
    If you don’t put any transactions through the card after paying the next fee you can call up to cancel the card, have the fee refunded, and keep the free night. Always been advertised here regularly.
    
    As the card was cancelled as a “business decision” by the card issuer rather than any breach of the T&C then the card issuer must treat the customer fairly.
    
    I would expect the free night to be rewarded in such circumstances, otherwise there is nothing to stop Creation from cancelling everyone’s accounts the month before the card anniversary (mine is cancelled one month before…) and avoid giving out the free night.
    
    In your example of Amex cancelling a card. I would expect the same. If the card was cancelled due to no-fault, then I would expect the 10k points to post. If it was cancelled due to a breach of the T&C then I would not expect the points to post.
    - JDB says:
      
      4 Oct4 October 11:45
      
      What I said the anniversary +fee being the trigger is from the FOS, not my view.
      
      It would be interesting if anyone has the Amex experience; I’m not all convinced they would give the points.
      
      I definitely don’t have the answer, but I don’t think the situation is as clear cut as some think/hope.
      - stevenhp1987 says:
        
        4 Oct4 October 11:52
        
        I doubt anyone has “Amex experience” with this as Amex don’t go around closing accounts for no reason.
        
        If Amex close you down it’s because you’ve been naughty! And you definitely wouldn’t expect the bonus points in that circumstance.
  - Jonathan says:
    
    4 Oct4 October 11:37
    
    There’s a huge difference between Creation closing your account mid year & refusing to give you a voucher & the quoted case where the customer just didn’t want to wait till year end.
    
    Création are not closing accounts for breach of T&C’s hence giving 60 days notice rather than immediate closure. They are entitled to do this but they won’t get away with failing to honour benefits already earned. I’d imagine they will also have to give pro rata refunds of annual fee.
    - Anna says:
      
      4 Oct4 October 11:44
      
      I agree – in over 2 years of having our cards, Creation has not once attempted to contact either of us about any perceived breach of Ts and Cs, nor is any such breach mentioned in the closure letter. As far as I am concerned I am entirely ignorant as to why they are closing these cards.
      - JDB says:
        
        4 Oct4 October 12:12
        
        We will see how it all pans out, but I wouldn’t rush into a complaint based on a hypothetical loss of opportunity/chance until it is confirmed to you.
    - JDB says:
      
      4 Oct4 October 11:48
      
      They don’t have the ability to close immediately for breach of T&Cs, only imminent possible criminal activity.
      - Anna says:
        
        4 Oct4 October 12:23
        
        But they haven’t even said there has been a breach of Ts and Cs …
  - Anna says:
    
    4 Oct4 October 11:40
    
    For the past 2 years we’ve received our certificates prior to paying the next £99 fee. It’s also been demonstrated (by a HFP reader, Rob has written about it) that it is possible to cancel the card, avoid the next fee and keep the free night, so Creation has set a precedent there, IMO.
- Genghis says:
  
  4 Oct4 October 11:29
  
  You have been led to expect that spending £10k on the card, as you have done, leads to the free night (Outcome 5).
  - JDB says:
    
    4 Oct4 October 11:39
    
    However, the £10k in itself is not the trigger (it is simply a threshold; similar but not identical!) unlike say BAPP companion voucher where the threshold is also the trigger. Tesco Premium card used to be the same, you needed to have the card open at the anniversary date and pay the new fee to get the previous year’s Clubcard reward; that is also the trigger point here. In respect of TCF/outcomes, if that comes into play (ie if I am wrong about the above) that is a subjective decision so the circumstances of the cancellation that Creation may put forward might become relevant. I believe the FCA is involved in all this, so whatever final decision Creation makes re the fee/free night will have their backing. I’m not sure Creation has yet provided any official view nor failed to deliver the free night/pro-rats fee refund, so as yet any complaint is hypothetical.
    - Anna says:
      
      4 Oct4 October 11:42
      
      Rob has written about how this is not actually the case.
      https://hfp2022.headforpoints.blog/2017/07/02/hsbc-premier-world-elite-bonus/
      - JDB says:
        
        4 Oct4 October 11:50
        
        Anna, that link is from 2017. The FOS reached a different conclusion in 2018 which isn’t a formal precedent, but will be their starting point if this reaches them.
    - Genghis says:
      
      4 Oct4 October 11:52
      
      “I believe the FCA is involved in all this”
      What’s your evidence?
      - JDB says:
        
        4 Oct4 October 11:58
        
        @Genghis HMT and the FCA have been involved for a few weeks.
      - Rui N. says:
        
        4 Oct4 October 12:26
        
        I hope so. It’s the best case scenario that the FCA and HMT are involved. Imagine when it reaches the tabloids that the government is conspiring with a French bank to close the CC of hard working Britons whose only crime was to use Apple Pay to avoid getting Covid and protect grandma. And that because of that decision Curve went bankrupt and thousands of small investors that believed in a “direct finance” company (like those the government and the Bank of England say the UK is the best country to start one) lost their investment.
      - JDB says:
        
        4 Oct4 October 12:30
        
        @Rui N – I think the narrative in the press will actually be that some people have been abusing NS&I so the government has unwittingly been funding their luxury flights and hotels!
      - Rui N. says:
        
        4 Oct4 October 12:54
        
        That would be the narrative if the government was not involved (maybe, you could get that with the tesco debit card as well for a while, so that would also be easy to make the news about being unfair for somr). If you were right (I know you are making it up – I don’t think you realise what you’re implying – but let’s assume you were right), that’s changes the picture completely and it would be a field day for the press. And quite useful for the inevitable legal cases that would ensue, of course: imagine living in a banana republic where the government tells businesses to close customers accounts without any due process for crimes such as using Apple Pay and trying to save money for their grandkids education. I know that the Tory conference is happening right now so we are all seeing in loco how people that don’t live in the real world think the world works, but I know people here now a bit more about life.
      - Genghis says:
        
        4 Oct4 October 12:59
        
        @JDB But what’s your evidence that the FCA and HMT have been involved? I could say that Superman has been involved but it doesn’t make it true.
      - stevenhp1987 says:
        
        4 Oct4 October 13:38
        
        @JDB
        
        Not sure you can class a week at a HIX as “luxury”.
      - TGLoyalty says:
        
        4 Oct4 October 15:34
        
        @JDB my understanding is that NCA are looking into all too. Interpol my need to be involved as a number of transactions took place abroad.
Anuj says:

4 Oct4 October 11:18

I got the letter that my creation card is being closed, but now they won’t even let me login to pay off the bill ! I get “Your account has restricted functionality”.
Literally such a useless credit card company, and I only had it added to curve so I could add it to apple pay.
- stevenhp1987 says:
  
  4 Oct4 October 11:21
  
  Closed immediately or December 3rd?
  
  If the later then I’d imagine the “restricted functionality” message is typical creation IT problems!
  - Anuj says:
    
    4 Oct4 October 12:13
    
    December 3rd
- Sina says:
  
  4 Oct4 October 11:22
  
  IDK, I can still log in to both the app and website!?
- Anna says:
  
  4 Oct4 October 11:26
  
  Just paid off both of ours in the last 30 minutes.
  They are useless though. They’ve been mithering for ages about setting up 2 factor authentification, then it doesn’t even work half the time. It also doesn’t even get asked for when I use my supplmentary card on my OH’s account, only for the main cardholder!