Creation cancelling credit cards which have been used with a Curve Card

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• rob(staaaar) says:

  3 Oct3 October 01:47

  Well, THAT was an interesting few hours reading through all 23 pages of comments. All I’m still in the dark about is is wtf is Earnie?

  • C says:

    3 Oct3 October 01:50

    It Earnies you points 😉

    • Blenz101 says:

      3 Oct3 October 05:16

      ERNIE, Electronic Random Number Indicator Equipment. It’s the name NS&I give to their random number generator for premium bonds.

      Using Curve it’s been possible to pay into NS&I accounts with a credit card and earning points, usually followed up by withdrawing the same funds and the redepositing.

      Creation it seems don’t like the risk profile for those who have ever linked their card to Curve and have invoked their 2 month right to cancel clause.

• David says:

  3 Oct3 October 02:46

  So, where do we think this is going to end up?
  IHG Rewards Club T&Cs, from sections 3 and 7:

  SCH has the right to terminate an account and/or revoke Member Points if it determines, in its sole discretion, that an account has multiple email addresses and/or is suspected of being related to fraudulent or abusive activity.

  Member’s misrepresentation of any information or any misuse of this Program;

  Member’s commission of fraud or abuse involving any portion of this Program, including but not limited to the abuse of corporate rates without authorization (as demonstrated by, for example, appropriate identification or validation at check-in), any conduct that improperly impacts the accumulation of Points or rewards, or abuses the redemption aspects of the Program.

  • Brian W says:

    3 Oct3 October 03:09

    😂 give it a rest @David, IHG have got nothing to do with this nor are they going to start getting involved. Glad you’ve injected some comedy into the 23 pages covering the matter however!

    • JDB says:

      3 Oct3 October 07:27

      The IHG points/vouchers are not part of the credit card T&Cs, they are, as stated above, awarded under the IHG Rewards T&Cs under the law of the State of Georgia and you have agreed that any dispute will be resolved exclusively by in person arbitration there! The suggestion that IHG wasn’t aware of this in advance is bizarre.

  • David says:

    3 Oct3 October 03:22

    Oh dear, Brian. Yeah, IHG have nothing to do with the contract issued to Creation, provision of free night certificates related to spend on the black card, receipt/application of points to Reward Club accounts.
    As others have said earlier, it’s inconceivable that IHG, at some level, didn’t know this was going to happen.
    I’d have thought it quite feasible to use the closure of 1,800 of their UK issued credit cards in these circumstances as grounds to close accounts… improperly accumulation of points alone.
    To be clear, I have considerable skin in this game and a lot to lose if it happened, but it’s got to be a possibility, surely? To think otherwise is massively naive IMO.

    • ThePenguin says:

      3 Oct3 October 08:56

      This is what’s coming next. Definitely going to come after these points now.

    • Char Char says:

      3 Oct3 October 13:16

      Clearly those terms are not related to the spending on a credit card and more related to other avenues. What you spend your money on the credit card is your business, there was nothing wrong with using Curve, they had a choice whether to accept cash like transactions or not regardless.

  • Anna says:

    3 Oct3 October 07:17

    But … What happened to the person who posted a few weeks ago that they’d been told their IHG points were going to be clawed back due to the way they had been obtained? Did that ever happen?

  • JDB says:

    3 Oct3 October 07:34

    Also point 4. (free card) or 6. (black) of the points T&Cs that come with the cards. I think many have forgotten the points T&Cs they agreed when they signed up for the card as evidenced by FOS decisions that refer back to these that the customer claimed not to know about.

    • Jonathan says:

      3 Oct3 October 09:07

      IHG have made a pretty profit from flogging points to Creation. They’ve got no interest in closing your account & a) deterring you from getting any future IHG cc (which they would also profit from) b) deterring you from ever staying in an IHG hotel again, however paid for & c) running the risk of Creation claiming they should be refunded for the cost of the cancelled points.

      I’ve got no issue with Creation closing accounts abruptly & without providing a reason. It’s permitted & a sensible business decision but some of the hyperbole on both sides re: Ombudsman/SAR’s etc & CIFAS/blacklisting/forfeiture of points is laughable.

      • JDB says:

        3 Oct3 October 09:24

        @Jonathan you are right about some of the hyperbole, but SARs started this process so shouldn’t be in your list. IHG knows about all this, but I have no idea if or how they will respond, however, with 100m programme members, if it came to it (and I am absolutely not saying it will) culling a couple of thousand possibly miscreant UK members will be of no wider concern.

        • Jonathan says:

          3 Oct3 October 09:33

          My point was that people saying they will put in SAR’s to Creation to annoy them/incur costs is pointless & petty.

          This is a straightforward business decision to cull unprofitable customers. If you were one of them then just take it on the chin. Equally it makes no business sense for IHG or Creation to take further action as it would be open to challenge legally & would bring in no revenue. Big businesses don’t engage in such behaviour.

          The number of people who have generated 7 figure balances off the back of this is minuscule.

        • JDB says:

          3 Oct3 October 09:38

          @Jonathan, ah, you were referring to DSARs, data subject access requests, when I was referring to SARs, suspicious activity reports! I agree, what a waste of time and effort; people would be well advised to keep a low profile and move on.

        • Dave says:

          3 Oct3 October 11:22

          @JDB why would IHG close accounts? Majority of people haven’t been wracking up millions of points. It’s not illegal to spend on the card, that’s what it was there for!

        • Genghis says:

          3 Oct3 October 11:23

          The way I see it:
          – I did nothing illegal or even breaching T&Cs; I was just an unprofitable customer.
          – I respect Creation’s decision. They can do business with whoever they want.
          – I paid £99 a year for the black card. I have accrued a voucher this year having spent £10k. They cancelled part way through the card year and therefore owe a prorata refund. Once I’ve got these, end of.

        • Char Char says:

          3 Oct3 October 13:19

          Agree with Genghis, being an unprofitable customer is not illegal and they have the right to close the credit card which they have done.

  • Roy says:

    4 Oct4 October 10:43

    The thing is, that requires IHG to show misuse (unlike the Creation terms, which allow Creation to cancel the card without reason).

    Even ignoring the GDPR issues around Creation sharing data with IHG, this would require Creation to actually do the work of figuring out who was using Curve abusively – something they clearly seem unable or unwilling to do.

• Rich says:

  3 Oct3 October 05:55

  Well I have used Curve with my IHG card just once for a cash withdrawal abroad and have yet to receive a letter. The suspense as to whether I’m forced to join the naughty boys club is killing me!! 😎

• Lee says:

  3 Oct3 October 07:22

  I lost my Curve metal card the other day, and they charge £50 (!!!) to replace them. It looks like, with the loss of Amex first, and now Creation, that it’s not going to be worth paying to replace it (plus the £150 annual fee, of course). I’ll just leave it until renewal, so I at least get the insurance benefits, and cancel instead of renewing.

  • Genghis says:

    3 Oct3 October 11:16

    Wouldn’t bother unless you really need for ATM. Just use Apple Pay or equivalent.

• Andy says:

  3 Oct3 October 07:45

  No letter here yet but only a matter of time!

• Rob says:

  3 Oct3 October 07:53

  Rob, do you see / anticipate other card issuers following Creation’s blocking of CURVE use coming over the hill? Never done any MS activity but still found it to be a very useful product.

  We all love the tips and products that HFP brings, and I’m sure it’s a difficult line for you to tread with your relationship with institutions on one side, and a ton of dedicated monetised readers on the other….

  • David says:

    3 Oct3 October 11:59

    Also found it to be useful but it’s clearly a toxic product. I used it for some standard fx transactions on holiday linked to Creation IHG, and made two test transactions of £10 (yes, £10!) to NS&I savings account to see if it does work after the hyperbole on here about it, before deciding it’s a fools game and I wasn’t going to go there.
    Now look who is the fool – legacy Black card closed which I really valued and used for all non Amex spend.
    I’ve unlinked remaining cards (rarely if ever used) from Curve, cleared my Curve cash yesterday onto restaurant gift card at Sainsburys and am binning the toxic thing.

    • Chrisasaurus says:

      3 Oct3 October 17:10

      The conspicuous lack of any comms from Curve is very telling. Certainly while I do plan on keeping mine until renewal I won’t link any cards I want to keep…

• KBuffett says:

  3 Oct3 October 07:54

  I have Curve Legacy Black. The insurance actually looks quite decent considering I have no ongoing costs and I also get 3% back at Argos, Boots, Goldsmiths amongst others.

  • Youllnever says:

    3 Oct3 October 08:15

    The legacy black doesn’t have insurance – that’s only applicable to the subscription black tier.

    • KBuffett says:

      3 Oct3 October 09:30

      It’s showing in my app as applicable, under the account section. Even has a policy number etc.

      • Youllnever says:

        3 Oct3 October 10:10

        That’s because all legacy black users had a 3 months trial years ago where they could test the new subscription black tier which included the insurance coverage, after that 3 months trial, the insurance coverage would have ended and you were automatically dropped back to the legacy trial unless you opted to move to the subscription black.

        The documents there are only there for if you’ve made any claims during that trial period (which I did incidentally).

        If you need insurance, you need to get it elsewhere – don’t incorrectly believe you have it with Curve!

        • KBuffett says:

          3 Oct3 October 11:07

          Thanks, good to know. Luckily, I don’t really trust Curve and the likes.

      • Harrier25 says:

        3 Oct3 October 11:10

        I’m Curve Black Legacy too and the main valued benefit to me is the unlimited FX which isn’t available to free blue card holders. I can confirm though that the insurance benefits are not available unless you are a subscriber.

  • Alex says:

    3 Oct3 October 11:25

    So glad I kept the black legacy too, and on top I’m a investor black legacy. Still the best deal.

    • Harrier25 says:

      3 Oct3 October 12:00

      Without a doubt, Alex. Anyone would be mad to upgrade from Black Legacy in my opinion.

      • Hugo says:

        3 Oct3 October 13:56

        The insurance was offered to some of us for free if we referred a few friends

        • Youllnever says:

          3 Oct3 October 14:13

          Yeah, but that isn’t part of the black legacy card benefit – that was an upgrade offer to get the black subscription perpetually free.

• Track says:

  3 Oct3 October 08:18

  The way how things go: Creation likely to have computed 2.95% on top of every Curve transaction used for FX and presented that number to Curve as “Loss of FX revenues”, probably in 10s of millions.

  Omitting the fact, that most of those transactions would never happen without Curve / would have never been charged to Creation cards (by FX-conscious Curve customers).

  There is a lot of talk about MS and nearly criminalising the efforts to earn points (eg, earn a gain from payment method). Yes it is very very easy to label things as misuse of account/wire fraud.

  An industry practice of 2.95% charge on “foreign transactions’ plus uncontrolled spread easily adding 2-3% on top of transaction.

  AMEX, Mastercard FX rates are set with the benefit of hindsight — end of the day, next day for the transaction date prior. They are set not in favour of purchasers of the originating country. Eg, AMEX would purchase a foreign currency cheaper on the day, and charge it higher to the customers later.

  This a legal sleight of hand that goes on and make a business of payment card issuers and payment system.

  • David says:

    3 Oct3 October 10:22

    Wire fraud is something entirely different.

    • Track says:

      3 Oct3 October 10:42

      May be. But given how US prosecutors throw in wire fraud charges on top any charges if the interstate electronic communication was used.

      The matter of payments to NS&I was raised. It is clear that NS&I consider themselves being defrauded because they have to pay higher debit card payment processing charges than anticipated. That is why taken measures are harsh, though not very sensible and suit Creation business purposes to get rid of customers who pay no interest and to potentially exit the market.

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