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The HfP chat thread – Tuesday 20th July

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Comments (375)

This article is closed to new posts. Discussion continues in the HfP Forums.

  • JDB says:
    20 Jul20 July 08:23

    @Anna you seem genuinely interested, so I thought I would pick up something you said yesterday about Avios effectively being notional which is why they aren’t a taxable benefit. I don’t think that is quite right – it’s set out in the HMRC Manual at EIM21618. In essence, if the employee earns Avios by flying on a ticket paid by the employer, the firm has paid no money and the Avios pass directly from the airline to the employee so no taxable benefit. However, if an employer purchased Avios and gave them to an employee, that would be a taxable benefit (value thereof TBD, but probably cost). Equally Anna (and I don’t know the answer, but you might) if someone were to steal Avios from your account, would that not be an offence in itself (ie forgetting any surrounding offences) like taking money from your account? Obviously the civil courts are happy to accept Avios as a form of money/payment, fortunately for those litigating v BA.

    • SteveJ says:
      20 Jul20 July 08:26

      I do agree with the above. Nothing in there links to the “getting a retention is fraudulent” claim though.

    • Chris Heyes says:
      20 Jul20 July 08:32

      JDB OMG wrong side of bed again? Never mind you keep me entertained
      Please don’t stop now your on a roll
      I really do like reading posts about nothing honest, so much so I sometimes write posts myself about nothing just to get reply’s lol

      • Anna says:
        20 Jul20 July 08:35

        JDB, there’s a reply pending but I must have used a term which can’t get through the HFP firewall!

        • Keely says:
          20 Jul20 July 08:37

          Anna I need to go to work but am delaying it to see the offending term 🤣🤣🤣

          • Anna says:
            20 Jul20 July 08:41

            I’m baffled – I thought it might be a reference to the loyalty scheme of a popular high street chemist but even when I took that out the comment has gone into the moderation box!
            I’ve threatened to leave my son at home when we go on holiday so I’m probably guilty of both fraud and child neglect

        • Chris Heyes says:
          20 Jul20 July 08:45

          Morning Anna we will wait lol

        • Rhys says:
          20 Jul20 July 08:47

          Just approved – not sure why that happened!

        • Michael C says:
          20 Jul20 July 08:51

          Anna, I wrote you a salutation de ánimo the other day (during BigBankGate) and that was removed..fyi I was comparing you to a multiple Oscar-winning actress: maybe she was the problem??!!

          • Anna says:
            20 Jul20 July 08:55

            Eres muy amable, Michael C, I will assume you were comparing me to the young Elizabeth Taylor 😂

        • Patrick Cold says:
          20 Jul20 July 08:59

          Please don`t mention MS!

        • JDB says:
          20 Jul20 July 09:20

          @Anna Thank you for your detailed reply. On fraud, you may be right in most of the cases, but what has struck me recently on here is that a couple of people have actually spelt out their approach and the steps they describe do seem to meet each of the tests. I have also occasionally seen it on here in other matters. One that sticks in my mind is someone saying they used a Turkish VPN to access Netflix in the UK at Turkish prices. Is that lawful?

          • Anna says:
            20 Jul20 July 09:28

            It would only be unlawful if there’s a specific UK law against it. Otherwise it would just be a breach of Netflix’s Ts and Cs.
            As far as I have ever seen, no one on this site has demonstrated fraudulent behaviour which would be investigated as such by the police in this country. Take this from a retired police officer of 28 years’ service, 6 of which were spent in a specialist high-volume crime investigation department. We dealt with this kind of thing all the time, a huge proportion of reports to the police are not actually criminal offences even though people genuinely believe they are; and because of this we tend to know where to direct these people to have their complaints addressed.

      • Steve S says:
        20 Jul20 July 10:09

        Just rang to cancel and first question was do you read Head for Points

        • Lady London says:
          20 Jul20 July 11:22

          Did you innocently say “What’s that?” Steve S?

        • Ali M says:
          20 Jul20 July 13:08

          OMG!!! @ ‘do you read headforpoints’

          • Rob says:
            20 Jul20 July 13:30

            All the Amex staff read this. They need to, because Amex management doesn’t actually tell them much directly 🙂

            You’d be surprised how many new readers we get from people who are recommended to us by the Amex call centre.

          • Super Secret Stuff says:
            20 Jul20 July 14:15

            Hi Amex all center staff 🙂

          • Super Secret Stuff says:
            20 Jul20 July 14:15

            *call

        • Will A says:
          20 Jul20 July 16:55

          @Steve S, did they give you a retention bonus?

    • JDB says:
      20 Jul20 July 08:37

      @Rimmingtown it’s not exactly my job my, but for various reasons, I have been involved in a lot of tax cases and litigation. In a personal capacity, I also took HMRC to judicial review and won. The court document bundle was about 2500 pages! As a result, I am required to read an awful lot of very tedious stuff; fortunately I am a fast reader.

    • Anna says:
      20 Jul20 July 08:52

      https://www.bcs.org/content-hub/loyal-fraudsters-on-the-rise-of-fraud-in-loyalty-schemes/

      This is an interesting article about the issues businesses face from misuse of loyalty schemes. It makes it very clear that criminal offences are only committed by people either accessing accounts unlawfully or acquiring data such as personal details. Unauthorised transactions involving loyalty points are an internal security matter for individual companies.

    • Ls says:
      20 Jul20 July 09:05

      My company have got a barristers opinion and made it clear they consider air miles/points etc earned on flights paid for by the company to have value, and to potentially be a taxable benefit. We have the option of either using the avios ourselves (in which case we have to declare to the company the number of points we have gained, so they can declare a benefit in kind), or we sign a form saying we will use the points for business purposes (upgrading business flights, extra baggage etc), in which case no action is taken. The policing of how I actually spend the avios is not checked…

      • Rob says:
        20 Jul20 July 09:12

        That would be a slightly bizarre legal opinion given that HMRC, ie the Government, states on its website that miles etc have no taxable value.

        They don’t even belong to you if you read the terms.

        That said in the US miles are taxed if not got from travel. Imagine if Amex told HMRC automatically that you got a bonus of 25k Avios worth 1.6p each and so had a taxable event worth £400. Happens in the States. Even competition prizes get taxed in the US though, which leads to the weird position of people desperately trying to revoke prizes they don’t want.

        • Anna says:
          20 Jul20 July 09:23

          Didn’t the German government try and tax air miles at one point?

        • JDB says:
          20 Jul20 July 09:37

          Rob, it isn’t strictly correct to say that miles “have no taxable value”. HMRC says that, in the normal way they are acquired – an employee flying on a ticket paid by his firm and directly credited to the employee’s miles account, the miles are not a taxable benefit. However, those miles would, for example, be taxable if purchased by the employer and given to the employee in the same way as other benefits are taxed.

      • Anna says:
        20 Jul20 July 09:18

        Again though, that’s a completely separate area from criminal law.

        • Anna says:
          20 Jul20 July 09:21

          Sorry, that was to Ls. Even if your barrister considers points to have some value in terms of taxable benefits (and that’s still only an opinion), this has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are classed as “property” for the purposes of the Theft or Fraud Acts.

          • Mikeact says:
            20 Jul20 July 18:34

            Thank goodness Green Shield stamps were never considered a taxable benefit in the 60’s. I had a bonus deal in place when selling equipment at £250k a time, and ended up with 100’s of completed books, each time 9 for me and 1 for the office staff for sticking in the stamps ! The manager of the Ealing/Acton Green Shield shop even called the police one evening after calling in once again to cash in another 100 books or so….family had some great Christmas presents !

        • JDB says:
          20 Jul20 July 10:11

          @Anna you are right of course in principle re criminal v civil law. The two did however helpfully recently ‘coincide’ in the case of the sub-postmasters. It was the judge’s findings re the Horizon system in a separate civil action that led to a review of the convictions and ultimately the Court of Appeal overturning many of those convictions.

          • Anna says:
            20 Jul20 July 11:42

            That was such a bizarre case! I’ve been following it for a few years and saying it’s just not feasible that so many post masters (not generally known for their organised crime activities) would be doing this. It’s just not what you’d expect to see statistically or in terms of human behaviour, and the police and CPS should have picked up on that anomaly at a much earlier stage.

          • The Savage Squirrel says:
            20 Jul20 July 14:52

            They didn’t coincide. That was new evidence coming to light that made convictions materially unsafe. It would be the same such evidence came to light thanks to a journalist’s investigation, new witness or any other way. The fact that it came to light via a civil case isn’t really relevant.

      • Dave says:
        20 Jul20 July 11:35

        I am confused, why would a company waste such time and expense on something so trivial?

        • ash says:
          20 Jul20 July 11:56

          Sounds like stupid people paying stupid people.

          Just hope none of us hold any shares in a company that waste money like that!

      • Magic Mike says:
        20 Jul20 July 21:32

        Barrister? Sure they weren’t the intern?

  • N says:
    20 Jul20 July 08:29

    Eid Mubarak to all my fellow brown people x

  • Paul says:
    20 Jul20 July 09:30

    Seems Boris and I do think alike after all after reading Cummings latest accusations. I always did feel we were on same wavelength but his policies during covid made me question it. Reassuring to hear what he actually thinks about all this covid stuff.

    • Aston100 says:
      20 Jul20 July 09:59

      I hope this isn’t the start of revisionist history from Boris apologists.

      • xcalx says:
        20 Jul20 July 11:35

        Are these new code names for an MS route that I an unaware of. Which cards are the revisionist and Boris apologists. 🙂

    • Richie says:
      20 Jul20 July 10:31

      Don’t actions speak louder than words?

    • Tariq says:
      20 Jul20 July 19:38

      I think Cummings wants to be careful or he’ll end up having a nasty accident in a road tunnel… 🤣

  • Andy says:
    20 Jul20 July 09:39

    Why is it reassuring to hear what he actually thinks? Actions speak much louder than words.

    “Oh he’s doing that thing that I don’t want him to do but at least I know he doesn’t really want to do it” is still him doing it..

    • Paul says:
      20 Jul20 July 09:57

      We live in a democracy where in order to stay in power you have to make decisions that don’t make sense. It’s still interesting to know what he would have done if he didn’t care about public vote, as often with politicians that is hard to ascertain.

      • TGLoyalty says:
        20 Jul20 July 10:36

        Uh? We live in a democracy so things should Go through parliament!

        The whole issue with all of this was there was no actual debate / changes allowed it was just pass this.

        • Blair says:
          20 Jul20 July 12:06

          Exactly. What TGL said. Sets such a worrying precedent for when a genuinely deadly threat comes along. COVID is a pussycat compared to many diseases lurking out there.

        • Dave1985 says:
          20 Jul20 July 12:51

          The first one wasn’t voted on but the last lockdown was voted in by a 95% majority. Parliamentary sovereignty Clive.

          • Dave1985 says:
            20 Jul20 July 13:33

            Either way. It’s freedom week so let’s enjoy ourselves rather than get angry with strangers on the internet!

            Happy freedom week!

          • TGLoyalty says:
            20 Jul20 July 14:59

            It was announced to the public before parliament and no debate nor amendments were allowed. That isn’t democracy.

  • Yolo says:
    20 Jul20 July 09:53

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rise-in-national-insurance-to-pay-for-tories-social-care-reforms-mkkh6njnz

    Because pensioners don’t pay NI. You can’t expect them to contribute to pay for the furlough that was needed to protect them.

    • Number9 says:
      20 Jul20 July 10:12

      Might not pay NI but my Mum paid a load of tax on the small private pension my Dad left her.

    • Steve S says:
      20 Jul20 July 10:18

      Those pensioners whilst working probably paid your child benefits and schooling though.

      • Jonathan says:
        20 Jul20 July 10:33

        They are a generation who’ve paid the least in compared to what they’ve taken out since the year dot. That’s ignoring the house price boom/free university/universal child benefit/DB pensions debate.

        • Steve S says:
          20 Jul20 July 13:11

          House price boom just means you pay 40k per year cara home fees

        • Paul Pogba says:
          20 Jul20 July 14:25

          Expectation on what the state should provide get bigger every election. If we had the welfare state of the 80s now we’d likely have lower taxes. As it is we expect half of people to go to uni, we expect child tax credits, a generous asylum system, 21st century healthcare (not healthcare stuck in the 80s), we expect infrastructure to be expanded to cope with the growing population, we expect the state to look after the elderly (when once it would have fallen on immediate family), we expect subsidy to reduce environmental damage, we expect the police to investigate bullying and name calling,… it is endless and it all needs paying for. Boomers got away with less tax because they expected less and got less.

          • Steve S says:
            20 Jul20 July 14:46

            Totally agree Paul but the tax rate was up to 83% in the 70’s

          • Ryan Gill says:
            20 Jul20 July 15:00

            Also the State to pay for children’s dinners, outside the school day too.

      • Chris says:
        20 Jul20 July 14:56

        I can categorically state with the certainty of my life that they are, as a group, net recipients and not net contributors.

    • Jonathan says:
      20 Jul20 July 10:29

      This is a joke. Put a penny on income tax, 2p on higher/additional if needed but to have tax rises which disproportionately effect those the money won’t benefit is a blatant bribe to his core voters.

      • Rui N. says:
        20 Jul20 July 10:57

        Hear hear

      • Ukgeorge says:
        20 Jul20 July 11:40

        Surely better to just tax people a flat rate when they die. No sign people are going to stop dying any time soon. But unfortunately those who inherit see it as a tax on them despite not earning the money.

        • Ryan Gill says:
          20 Jul20 July 15:02

          Damn right I do. My parents worked hard primarily to leave a legacy for their adult children.

    • Lady London says:
      20 Jul20 July 11:27

      I think people working after pension age should pay NI. It’s earnings and NI is tax so they should be taxed like everyone else.

      I hope Rishi does that in next budget.

      • xcalx says:
        20 Jul20 July 11:44

        “I think people working after pension age should pay NI. ” Some are. Women who are 65 now and still working until they are 66 were promised a pension at 60 I think they would claim to be paying more than NI. They have been robbed of thousands. How about raising the pension age to say 90, problem solved.

        • Paul Pogba says:
          20 Jul20 July 14:38

          Women on average live longer than men so arguably their retirement age should be higher than mens.

      • Anna says:
        20 Jul20 July 11:46

        I thought that people do have to pay NI on income, just not on pensions?

        • xcalx says:
          20 Jul20 July 11:53

          “You do not pay National Insurance after you reach State Pension age – unless you’re self-employed and pay Class 4 contributions. You stop paying Class 4 contributions at the end of the tax year in which you reach State Pension age. … You must contact HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) if you think you should be paying tax.”

          from dotgov

        • xcalx says:
          20 Jul20 July 12:03

          Ah – *state* pension age. Got a while to go yet!

          Ohhh don’t rub it in 🙂 I often wondered how early retirees are affected by the 36 years of stamps rule for the full state pension. Each year missed reduces the SP by around £5 per week. Missing years can be purchased

          • Blair says:
            20 Jul20 July 12:11

            NI needs to be abolished. It’s not a contribution to one’s personal ‘rainy day’ pot. Just call it what it is – direct tax.

          • Paul Pogba says:
            20 Jul20 July 14:40

            It would cost far more than 2% on income tax to abolish NI, employers have to pay 13.8% that most employees know nothing about.

          • Chris Heyes says:
            20 Jul20 July 19:02

            xcalx I started work at 15 retired at 50, I think can’t remember that long ago that I didn’t have that many stamps to put on to get the full state pension,
            That I didn’t claim until I reached 65, I had a private pension paid in two instalments One slightly (okay a fair bit larger lol)
            Paid out from 50 to 65 only.
            Second one kicked in at 65 for life plus my state pension plus my works pension

      • Chris Heyes says:
        20 Jul20 July 18:50

        Lady London I think “No-One” should be allowed to work after pension age
        If that happened there would be “Full” employment in this country.
        As one who never ever worked overtime in my life, and believe me later on in life I was put under a lot of pressure to work overtime including threats
        I’m a firm believer that there should also be a cap on how much an individual can earn
        Yes I also realise that “all” on here will disagree with me and have all sorts of reasons why I’M wrong but them are just my views on life
        I also can’t believe in this century the pension age is going “UP”
        When i was in my 20s I was sure pension age would come down to 50
        and the working week would be 25 hours a week to get full employment in this country
        How wrong was I !

  • Red Flyer says:
    20 Jul20 July 10:17

    HSBC Premier WE question – is the £60 additional cardholder an annual fee in addition to the usual £195 for the main cardholder?

    • JDB says:
      20 Jul20 July 10:25

      Yes, it is an additional £60.

    • Guernsey Globetrotter says:
      20 Jul20 July 10:29

      Yes – from their website blurb: “For an annual fee of £60, you can get an additional credit card for up to 3 members of your family or friends to your card account. They’ll earn points and enjoy unlimited airport lounge access, too. Please note that if you are a Jade customer, the £60 annual fee for any additional cardholder will be refunded.”

    • Tariq says:
      20 Jul20 July 19:49

      Yup, I just link a Curve card to mine and give that to the additional cardholder. 😆

  • jack charlton says:
    20 Jul20 July 10:44

    I see that the USA has indeed reviewed the travel restrictions for the UK. They’ve increase the UK to the highest warning level !. “Level 4 DO NOT TRAVEL !”

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/19/politics/state-department-uk-covid-travel-advisory-level/index.html

    • Lady London says:
      20 Jul20 July 11:29

      Excellent, and interesting from a political point of view as well as probably sensible health-wise.

    • Anna says:
      20 Jul20 July 11:49

      This is just bizarre – the US is not in a better position than the UK in terms of infection and vaccination rates, and they are also allowing people to enter from places like Mexico, Colombia and Turkey where it’s widely agreed that Covid figures and hugely under reported.

      • Blair says:
        20 Jul20 July 12:12

        But US voters don’t read the news in Mexico, Colombia, Turkey. They do read MailOnline, The Times of London, etc. British media doom travels very well.

      • N says:
        20 Jul20 July 15:30

        Would you fly out to a country with the same number of infections per capita as the UK right now?

        I wouldn’t.

  • Yorkshire Rich says:
    20 Jul20 July 10:45

    Hello all, I always enjoy reading recommendations on here so I thought I’d ask for some advice. Getting married very soon, and as overseas travel is limited, we have 2 weekends in the uk planned. On the dates 13th to 15 August, we are swaying towards getting the train to London, watching a show, afternoon tea etc.
    Anyone got any recommendations on hotels? I Dont have a struct budget as such as it is a special occasion but I want some sort of value for money.
    I know I’ve got most of the Amex offers saved (although I can’t see them in the app, but that’s another story). There is obviously a lot of choice but I know as readers on here regularly frequent the hotels, I’ll probably pick from here.

    Thanks in advance

    • Grant says:
      20 Jul20 July 11:20

      Congrats! Seems like a good excuse to use the offer on the Maybourne Group (Claridges, Connaught, Berkeley).

      • Lady London says:
        20 Jul20 July 11:30

        +1 The Berkeley has a nice rooftop pool as another poster has mentioned recently

    • Harry T says:
      20 Jul20 July 11:32

      What sort of hotel do you fancy? I personally would highly recommend the London EDITION (Marriott Bonvoy) and Great Scotland Yard (part of Hyatt’s unbound collection). Both are modern luxury hotels with excellent service. GSY is more interesting from a historical perspective.

      • Jonathan says:
        20 Jul20 July 12:20

        EDITION is nice but doesn’t feel that special to me. Location is central but a bit meh (side street off the scruffy end of Oxford St) & once you get beyond impressive lobby/bar it doesn’t have the polish of a top 5* like The Berkeley/Claridges/Savoy.

      • Yorkshire Rich says:
        20 Jul20 July 12:22

        Thankyou to the above posters there. I did like the look of the the great scotland yard. I’m tempted to book one for Friday and one for Saturday but I appreciate that’s not everyone cup of tea. I can use the Hyatt offer there too.
        I notice there’s a credit for dining at the claridges on the booking rate. Do we think I could use the offer on mine and then my future wife supplementary card?

        Can I just add I’m happy at wetherspoons but I feel I have to make an effort every now and then

    • Memesweeper says:
      20 Jul20 July 13:41

      Not a place to stay but dinner (not afternoon tea) at the Ritz is lovely. Combine with a hotel stay & Amex offers if you’d like.

      Sunset views in the Shard are unforgettable if you time a meal there right. Again, the hotel stay is optional.

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