The HfP chat thread – Sunday 3rd January

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Louie says:

3 Jan3 January 06:43

A few days ago I asked why covid vaccinations in the UK couldn’t be administered by volunteers or pharmacists (or rather in pharmacies) as in Australia rather than doctors and nursing staff who already have enough on their plates. One person replied it was because they hadn’t done courses in conflict resolution and diversity training. I thought they were being facetious; I didn’t think that could possibly be true in the middle of a pandemic. I was wrong – https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55516277. Words fail me…..
- QFFlyer says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 07:04
  
  “why covid vaccinations in the UK couldn’t be administered by volunteers or pharmacists (or rather in pharmacies) as in Australia” – COVID vaccinations aren’t a thing in Australia yet, what does this mean?
  - Louie says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 08:43
    
    OK, what I should have said is “a few days ago I asked why covid vaccinations in the UK couldn’t be administered by volunteers or pharmacists (or rather in pharmacies) as FLU VACCINES ARE in Australia”. I assume there is no difference in principle between administering flu and covid vaccines.
    - Chrisasaurus says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 09:15
      
      You assume? Well, the assumption of a subject that random Internet person isn’t involved in and appears to have no expertise in is good enough for me! Pass me my pitchfork!
      - Louie says:
        
        3 Jan3 January 22:13
        
        If you reread what I wrote, I was asking why pharmacists apparently couldn’t help here. Asking means seeking information. If there is a difference in sticking a needle in an arm to transfer a flu vaccine and a covid vaccine, I’d be interested to hear about it.
      - Rob says:
        
        4 Jan4 January 09:46
        
        The Pfizer vaccine can cause an alergic reaction in some people with food alergies – you need to be monitored for 15 minutes after getting it.
    - QFFlyer says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 10:07
      
      Ah righto that makes sense. Aren’t flu vaccines administered in pharmacies in the UK? I’m sure I remember Tesco being able to do them in store, but may be mistaken.
    - Tariq says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 10:07
      
      Flu vaccines are available in pharmacies in the UK.
      - Louie says:
        
        3 Jan3 January 22:20
        
        I didn’t know that, thank you. My parents have never been given that option in the UK.
- Bs says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 07:06
  
  Partly Fake news. The courses mentioned are for retired medics/non-trust nurses to come and join a local NHS trust to administer the vaccine. As a requirement under the global trusts indemnity policies these courses have to be completed. As trust indemnity is largely done centrally, this should be an easy thing to skip if the will was there. But the limit at the moment (and indeed ongoing) is the supply of vaccines, not the speed of giving them. So the benefit in using volunteers is minimal.
  
  Pharmacists will be covered under their current indemnity arrangements – many already give the flu jab for example. And will not have to complete the specific courses mentioned. Especially with the Astra Zeneca vaccine which only needs a fridge, they will be a very good source for vaccinations when the supply is there.
  - Paul Pogba says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 10:31
    
    Why is a current dentist interviewed for the article claiming he’s being asked to provide evidence of radicalisation awareness training if it’s just for retirees?
- Anuj says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 07:15
  
  As most ‘PC gone mad’ headlines, I heavily suspect the article is bending the truth. I wouldn’t be surprised if the training is relatively short. Also conflict resolution seems quite important to me with all the covidiots bandying about it’s only a matter of time before you start to see people getting aggressive turning up to discover the ‘truth’ and not actually intend to be vaccinated.
  - Anna says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 07:34
    
    I don’t know, bureaucracy has gone a bit mad these days. I have 3 separate DBS certificates showing I’m safe to work with children (required for each different agency you work for), but was told this doesn’t cover working with adults when I enquired about being a phone volunteer to do welfare contacts for the elderly! I really couldn’t be bothered going through the process again. It would make much more sense to have a national register which is regularly updated. In one case the DBS officer from one organisation had to take a taxi for an 80 mile round trip just to spend 2 minutes photographing my identity documents!
    - Yuff says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 08:29
      
      Almost as bad as health and safety insisting someone from Birmingham has to drive over to Nottingham county court to move the clocks back due to health and safety, common sense doesn’t apply to public services.
    - Ming The Merciless says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 08:58
      
      DBS- it doesn’t mean you’re save to work with children- it just means you haven’t been caught.
    - James says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 17:55
      
      The DBS service can check both adult and children’s lists held by the DoH (adults) and DfE (children’s). What they check though is dictated by the requesting agency and the level of DBS they ask for. That is why a children’s focused check would (potentially) not include adults checks. Hardly bureaucracy gone mad.
    - Polly says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 23:31
      
      Same here, have 2 different ones for the same borough. One as a school governor, to cover numerous roles within. Another then required within the same borough, Elmbridge to bring the elderly to OPD appts. Not good for the next borough to continue the same role when we moved home. Unreal delays and total waste of time. Makes volunteering so hard at times.
      
      And now recently retired medics and nurses not even being allowed to give the vaccine, when they have given 1000s during their working lives. So, current med students ARE allowed, and they haven’t got the experience.
      But they know all about diversity! Really useful when giving a vaccine in an upper arm.
  - M says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 07:47
    
    As a Doc I can guarantee that unfortunately the online courses will be at least 30 mins each.
    - Jonathan says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 08:15
      
      Depends on the provider. When I was still a registrar & rotating through different trusts every 3-6 months I found the induction stuff quite variable. You have to complete an online module in all the same fields (conflict resolution, diversity, data security etc etc) but some of the platforms let you skip the content & go straight to the questions (which were pretty straightforward, especially when completed frequently) whereas others made you click through all the content & watch videos to the end before advancing.
      
      The former systems you could complete a module in 5 mins, the latter would be 30 mins each so a total time commitment of between 40 mins & 4 hours.
      
      Very glad to now be settled in one hospital & not have to deal with that cr@p anymore!
      - Tom H says:
        
        3 Jan3 January 09:56
        
        I wish! My trust make me redo them every two years!
    - Harpo says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 09:18
      
      As a Doc, I suggest you skip to the MCQ assessment at the end, anyone supra-tentorially intact will make the pass mark without doing the course.
      - Louie says:
        
        3 Jan3 January 22:25
        
        Wow. I’ve learnt a new word today.
    - QFFlyer says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 10:10
      
      I can easily believe this. I’m not a Medical Professional, but do have to do various courses mandated by my employer even to be a registered first aider (above and beyond the FAW and CPR courses themselves), most recently infection control – it took literally hours to read through and complete the exam based assessment.
  - The Savage Squirrel says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 09:13
    
    I can assure everyone it is not fake news. As an already practising, registered, regulated and insured clinician who already works with patients and administers injections every day, you’d think it would be trivial to get me on board. Nope. I still need to jump through those hoops, including anti-radicalisation training (what the actual f***??) and more than 20 other courses and documents as well as two references in order to volunteer. I too gave up in despair and know several others who did the same. Much could be fixed in the NHS by removing the army of compliance staff who have come to believe that generating and managing paperwork is in and of itself a useful or productive activity.
    - Bazza says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 09:34
      
      This is the truth and nothing but the truth! A good luck getting anyone registered on ESR in the first place!
    - kitten says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 10:17
      
      Please note my sacrifice today, in order to keep this a rational mutually respectful forum about travel, in *not* saying : I thought we left Europe to get rid of this cr*p 🙂
    - BuildBackBetter says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 11:05
      
      Why do you think radicalisation is a joke?
      Trolling aside, aren’t these like 10 or 20 min training sessions?
      - Anna says:
        
        3 Jan3 January 11:46
        
        Is the training intended to root out radicalised medics or help them spot radicalisation in their patients and colleagues? Either way, it’s a very complex subject for a 30 minute online lesson!
      - The Savage Squirrel says:
        
        3 Jan3 January 12:15
        
        @Anna, and even more optimistic that you could use it in any way during the less than 5 minutes of interaction with each patient while administering a vaccine dose.
- Nick_C says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 07:53
  
  Covid vaccinations can be administered by volunteers or pharmacists. But a trained competent volunteer who is not a registered professional would require supervision.
  
  A registered healthcare professional must
  a. Assess the individual presenting for vaccination
  b. Provide information and obtain informed consent
  c. Provide advice to the individual
  
  A registered healthcare professional could be a Nursing Associate, Midwife, Pharmacist, Chriropodist, Dietician. Occupational Therapist, Paramedic, Physiotherapist, Speech & Language Therapist, Dental Hygieneist, Optometrist. Or of course a Doctor or Nurse.
  
  The Vaccine must be prepared by a healthcare professional, but can be administered by a non registered person with appropriate supervision.
  
  Everyone involved in the process needs to be trained and competent.
  
  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-protocol-for-covid-19-mrna-vaccine-bnt162b2-pfizerbiontech
  - Craig says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 08:50
    
    This is why a vaccinator can’t be just a volunteer, maybe the protocols need to change but until supply outstrips the current NHS capacity to administer then this won’t be a problem. There is also an issue in the training required to drawdown the Pfizer vaccine as it comes in vials for 5 (optimistically 6) doses. Mrs S is getting quite frustrated with the changes in protocols but is finally gearing up to start jabbing people in a couple of days. Wish me luck too, I’ll be standing in a very cold car park for up to 12 hours a day as a volunteer marshall, high viz and clipboard at the ready.
    - Froggee says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 09:11
      
      Thank you for volunteering CRAIG – woollen socks (possibly two pairs!) are the way to go.
      - Anna says:
        
        3 Jan3 January 09:17
        
        I am considering volunteering but need a firm decision to be made on schools first!
        Someone will probably explain the difference – immediately after a majpr op a couple of years ago I was informed that I had to inject myself with anti-clotting medication for 10 days 😬. Fortunately my OH is considerably less squeamish and more comfortable with needles than me and did it for me but all he was given was one demonstration by a nurse and a box of syringes with an instruction leaflet!
      - Craig says:
        
        3 Jan3 January 09:59
        
        All the hiking kit is coming out!
      - kitten says:
        
        3 Jan3 January 10:23
        
        ‘Deep Heat’ branded socks and tinfoil or tinfoil-lined sole inserts in your boots, if you cant find the very best lambswool ones, are the way to go.
        
        In summer run a bar of wettened soap across the sole of your socks – an old cricket trick from my Dad for hot weather.
    - ankomonkey says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 10:12
      
      High-viz jacket you say? Maybe you’ll see Alex Cruz there in a similar role…
    - Louie says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 22:32
      
      Good for you Craig. I’m sure we are all grateful for the efforts of people like you. I hope it goes well.
  - Craig says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 09:23
    
    For Anna, the anti clot is a subcutaneous injection as opposed to the vaccine which is intramuscular. Also, there is a risk of an anaphylactic shock with the vaccine so there needs to be trained medics on hand.
    - Anna says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 11:49
      
      I knew there must be a reason. I was black and blue by the end of it and had run out of viable injection sites!
- Jonathan says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 08:33
  
  My dad (a retired doctor) has volunteered to be a vaccinator & has been told he has to go through all the induction & background checks (despite still being registered with the GMC).
  
  The position at the moment is you have to fulfil all the requirements to join the staff bank. I suspect there will be a change to this shortly but it will require a directive from someone senior in NHS England. It is reasonable for trusts to not ignore existing rules as there does need to be some level of vetting & training.
  
  Realistically though you need a maximum of 5,000 WTE’s to deliver 2,000,000 vaccines a weak (very conservative estimate of 10 vaccines/hr over an 8 hour day, 5 days/week).
  
  A big proportion of this workload can be covered by pharmacists, existing vaccinators in hospitals/GP surgeries or people like me who are currently an NHS doctor but would be happy to do an extra day/week in the short term to get it done.
  
  The rate limiting factor will be vaccine supply initially so makes sense to resource this with existing staff where possible rather than recruiting a huge number of volunteers who will then need training & supervision.
  - Brian says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 09:18
    
    The Easter promise is just cloud cuckoo land stuff from the government isn’t it? The head of NHS England has said it’ll be late spring (spring ends on June 21st) before the people on the priority list will be vaccinated.
    
    Remember that we were meant to have 30 million doses available of the Oxford vaccine by September. In November it was 4 million by the end of the year. How many available tomorrow? 530,000.
    - Andrew says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 10:00
      
      Absolutely – nothing is changing here until the summer – Easter we will still be in tier 4 with travel restrictions for sure.
    - TGLoyalty says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 10:03
      
      Nail on head.
- Lumma says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 09:32
  
  Meanwhile, the NHS PCR testers go through 1 day’s training with hardly any background checks to do that role
  - TGLoyalty says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 11:53
    
    Because they aren’t actually administering anything to humans!
- Jill ( Kinkell) says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 10:35
  
  Boris( on the Andrew Marr show) agreed that these requirements seemed excessive, So I’m sure it will change.
  - Brian says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 12:05
    
    It’s nice of him to wait until the day before the vaccine that’s meant to be a game changer is starting to be administered, to start thinking about making such changes.
- Karl says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 11:56
  
  I had my Covid vaccine given by a medical student. Also I know of pharmacists and pharmacy technicians administering them.
  - KBuffett says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 12:37
    
    I know of many, many GP practices that are refusing to assist. In general, they are a let down and have pretty much shut their doors since March.
    - James says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 13:09
      
      Nonsense
    - kitten says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 13:53
      
      my dentist has stayed open operating under very onerous safety measures for the benefit of patients.
      
      My GP surgery has basically gone AWOL.
      
      Given the remuneration levels the GP’s have enjoyed over the past few years for very little increase in service whereas the contract for dentists with the NHS has got worse and worse I think it’s time dentists were given a bit more funding so they xan actually provide decent quality of care to patients without losing money.
      - Polly says:
        
        3 Jan3 January 23:45
        
        Same here with ours. They get this set fee no matter how many fillings you need. Ridiculous policy. These fillings each take time. Agree they have been dealt a shoddy agreement.
        My OH had his back checked outside the clinic, at the bottom of the steps in full view of waiting patients in the car park. Doc in full PPE so v safe. He might have got pneumonia, but that didn’t matter! Hilarious.
Jan M says:

3 Jan3 January 07:32

Question about travel to Germany. I need a PCR or antigen test before departure. A PCR test is logistically impractical , but the embassy states that “Antigen tests must meet certain quality standards.” Does anyone know if the antigen test offered at Heathrow meets that standard? And any advice for how early to arrive? I see results only take 45 minutes?
- Michael C says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 07:43
  
  Jan, we were at Heathrow the other day for a test (although not flying): most people seemed to be there around 6 hours before flight: 45 mins was the “as from…” time, but 3 hours seemed to be the standard. On top of that, on our day, there was an “unexpected” delay in the queue of 2 hours…
- Pete says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 09:49
  
  The testing at LHR is done by Collinson as at various other airports – I would hope their antigen tests meet the standard, which is on the RKI website, but I can’t find any evidence of this. BF is on his way to Germany by train now, so unlikely to get asked for the test result, but we got him one at LCY from Collinson on 1/Jan. It was super efficient there, in and out in about 45mins. The results arrived about 10mins after the test by email. For £50 it seemed vaguely good value and the certificate looks official enough.
  - Jan M says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 13:08
    
    Thanks! I was thinking of Eurostarring because Belgium’s perspective on testing seems the most reasonable of all the countries but it’s a long way to Saxony by train. I may give Collinson a ring tomorrow.
    - RussellH says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 14:25
      
      I have travelled Dresden + Leipzig to Bruxelles several times by train (and onward to the UK on the same day).
      Even though DRS is a quiet airport, BRU is not pleasant (never been through Leipzig-Halle), so I would always choose the train for a journey like this.
    - Pete says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 15:34
      
      He’s not far off Berlin now – it’s an 8-9hr journey and has worked out well a few times now. Was asked if he had taken a test a couple of times at St Pancras and then Brussels Midi was rather chaotic, but all worked out fine. It’s frustrating BA decided to cancel all flights until Friday next week, when EZ and FR seem to have worked out how to get approvals from the German government and are happily flying…!
John says:

3 Jan3 January 07:33

Any card for an acct that is visible on your online banking / app will work.

Do you mean debit card linked to your current account?
Nick_C says:

3 Jan3 January 07:42

Lloyds/Halifax – credited to your current account at the end of the month following the transaction. Doesn’t matter whether you use a debit or credit card, always goes to the current account. (If you don’t have a current account, just a credit card, then you are not eligible for the offers.)
- Nick says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 10:31
  
  Also worth noting in this specific case that (as with Amex) co-op offers are valid ONLY at the national co-op outlets, not regional ones (e.g. mid-counties, and others), which are run totally separately and use a different merchant account to process transactions. Not far from me there are two co-ops less than 5 mins walk from each other, but that aren’t actually the same company as one is mid-counties. To be fair to them, they do stress that with a large sticker on the door.
Ant says:

3 Jan3 January 08:18

Morning I have about £5k to pay to HMRC. Which is the best way of paying this to earn some points? I have the basic Curve card. Virgin and IHG cards.
- John says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 09:40
  
  You’ll need to upgrade to Metal or pay the fronted fee to make curve payments to HMRC. If you’re only paying £5k, the Metal fee is unlikely to make sense for you.
- Jonathan says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 09:53
  
  Upgrade to Curve metal but you’re looking at £90 minimum for 6 months subscription to earn 7,500 Virgin or 10,000 IHG points. Otherwise pay the Curve fronted fee of 1%. Either way, not worth it for a 5k payment
  - Doog1000 says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 10:14
    
    thought it was possible to pay hmrc with revolut backed by a card that doesn’t charge cash advances like MBNA horizon legacy?
    - Harrier25 says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 10:31
      
      You can pay HMRC with Revolut with no charge but it’s just a standalone debit card so unlike with Curve, you can’t link it to another card.
      - Doog1000 says:
        
        3 Jan3 January 11:03
        
        sorry I meant topped up by rather than backed by
dezbez says:

3 Jan3 January 08:27

Is anyone else having issues with Curve? A recent ATM transaction for £200 was declined but my account still charged and no sign of the Amazon bonus.
Tickets raised for both items a week ago but no response from Customer Services.
- Clive says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 10:24
  
  I had a number of declines Christmas Eve on ATM withdrawal which when I contacted Curve they said there was a glitch which they were aware of. Transactions were just posted as declined though
Olly says:

3 Jan3 January 09:19

While we are taking Curve……. I contacted them via the app messaging the day before yesterday enquiring about raising my daily/monthly limits for making a payment against a car purchase. Can anyone advise what their usual turnaround time is at responding?
- The Savage Squirrel says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 09:23
  
  Have you checked your limits? The monthly one no longer exists for most (all?). As I understand it the 4.5/1.4 daily and annual limits are MasterCard limits so Curve cannot and will not increase them.
- Olly says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 09:26
  
  Oh….. And I’ve just check the app to find my limits have gone down from £9000/£1.4 million to £1000/£100,000, what’s that all about?
  - Lumma says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 09:34
    
    Really? I still have the £1.6million yearly limit (and I was only on £20k before that)
  - BuildBackBetter says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 09:38
    
    That’s ur atm limit. R u confusing with your purchase limit?
    - Olly says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 10:49
      
      Thanks BbB, you are correct, they are the ATM numbers. The purchase amounts though have gone to to £9k and now £1.6 million from two days ago, though I’m unsure if that’s because of my query or not.
      - BuildBackBetter says:
        
        3 Jan3 January 12:54
        
        It’s the default I think. I put in small amounts compared to others here and never requested an increase, but got the same limits as above.
barnyd says:

3 Jan3 January 09:35

Out of interest what is the longest people have waited for their flight booking to be ticketed ?
We made a couple of VA bookings in Nov and were given a ref number as normal but we have never received any email confirmation or ticket numbers. I’ve queried this with Virgin who say ‘it’s still in the queue’ but it seems an awfully long time to me. Every other VA flight booking we have made the ticketing confirmation came within 24 hours. The flights are not in till Sep so there’s no urgency but this doesn’t seem right to me. I don’t know perhaps I’m worrying over nothing.
- Pete says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 09:50
  
  BA have been taking ages when it needs to be done manually in some cases – had to chase a booking to be ticketed 36hrs before the flight back in November!
- Lottie says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 09:59
  
  I thought I was worrying over nothing, until my flight was cancelled. I was then told as it hadn’t been ticketed they couldn’t refund me as there had to be a ticket to refund! (BA not VA) . Despite several phone calls I have had to go down the credit card route to get the money back. So worth another chase if you can.
- Sean says:
  
  3 Jan3 January 10:16
  
  I’m in the same position – booked towards end Nov. Was told it would take a couple of weeks – but as flight isn’t until June not been overly worried yet.
  - Clive says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 10:25
    
    6 months here and still not ticketed for a CX Award flight
  - Reeferman says:
    
    3 Jan3 January 10:26
    
    Mine was booked with BA end-July and still not ticketed. It also used a FTV, so an extra layer of complication apparently.
    I wasn’t too fussed as the flight isn’t until early July 2021 but in view of Lottie’s comments, I’ll chase-up shortly I think.
    - Nick says:
      
      3 Jan3 January 10:51
      
      No idea what Virgin Australia is doing, but BA is very openly actioning re-ticket requests according to date of flight not request – very sensible when you think about it, as it means those rebooking close in can travel unimpeded, while for those who are travelling months away it doesn’t really matter if they have to wait. If you call now for a flight in July, they will refuse to escalate – this is only accepted if the flight is within 72 hours.
      - barnyd says:
        
        3 Jan3 January 11:06
        
        Sorry I meant VS not VA. But I’m sure the same theory applies.
        Thanks for all the replies, I’ll chase it up again but seeing at the flights are not till Sep it doesn’t seem like there is too much to worry about right now.