The HfP chat thread – Wednesday 23rd December

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Matthew says:

23 Dec23 December 03:26

Just thinking ahead to 2021 and the usual hotel category change announcements. Do we think a lot will go down in category due to the pandemic or will we even see the opposite and more go up as in recent years? Hoping some new sweet spots may emerge…
- Harry T says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 07:53
  
  Marriott Bonvoy will probably not change much but I doubt they will love us enough to reverse some of the outrageous devaluations that have emerged over the last two years or so.
  - Matthew says:
    
    23 Dec23 December 12:51
    
    Gone are the days of 270,000 points for a week at Domes! 🙁
- Rob says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 07:55
  
  Hilton and, getting there, IHG are basically revenue based (with a cap) so nothing changes there. We have already seen Marriott struggling, pushing through ‘all hotels at off-peak prices’ offers. The problem is that, even when all hotels are off peak priced, pricing is so low that redemptions are still poor.
  
  That said, I am getting 1.5p per Bonvoy point at the resort I am currently sitting in, so can’t complain 🙂
  - Harry T says:
    
    23 Dec23 December 09:29
    
    I agree, Rob. Outside of certain areas that still charge high cash prices due to some ongoing demand, redemptions just don’t make sense at the moment. Realistically, Marriott Bonvoy should move properties down categories in their review this year to reflect the reduced demand and occupancy. However, they don’t appear to listen to their elites and just continue to devalue the programme yearly.
  - Matthew says:
    
    23 Dec23 December 12:51
    
    Yes I think you’re prob right too. Very hard to find real value with hotel redemptions these days. Hilton I find you have to book really early for peak dates to maybe do ok. Generally the best value I get from both Hilton and Marriott points are using them for experiences/moments. That’s for real money can’t buy stuff. Hotels you can always get but a yacht at Yas Marina on race day for less points than a night in a London hotel….is a bargain!! I do hope these experiences will return post pandemic.
- TGLoyalty says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 09:46
  
  The redemption points cost is meant to be linked to demand. I doubt anything will change in 2021.
  
  Hoping for more cut price redemption promotions.
Jon says:

23 Dec23 December 03:55

Just to share my experience re making a Section 75 claim with American Express.

It seems that, if you specifically want a Section 75 claim, rather than a regular dispute/chargeback, then the process is NOT to go via the Statements section in your online account and follow the ‘dispute this charge’ link against the relevant transaction (as explained in Rhys’ article at https://hfp2022.headforpoints.blog/2020/04/17/use-section-75-to-get-a-flight-or-hotel-refund/). That route will promptly get you a provisional refund of the original charge, but is not the way to go if you want to claim for consequential losses, or get authorisation to book a replacement flight, for example. Instead, contact Customer Services (online chat seems to work well – they were very helpful for me yesterday). They will initiate the claim for you.

You’ll then receive an email from the Section 75 Disputes team, with an attached form for you to complete and return. This is in the, er, form of a Word doc with about three pages of open-ended questions – long but straightforward. There’s plenty of space to provide as much detail as you can about your reason for claim and what you want from it. There’s also a helpful checklist of evidence you’ll need to provide (when relevant – you may not need to provide everything). You can return your completed form and supporting docs by email or post.

One thing to note: there is no regulatory timeframe, just a promise to complete their investigation as soon as possible. So I guess if your flight is imminent or you’re stuck downroute, you’d have to buy the replacement flight and then claim to (hopefully) recover the cost. But if you have plenty of time before your flight, Amex’ advice was to make the claim and then, if successful, buy the replacement ticket. I’m not sure whether they might place any limits on cost or fare class etc – I didn’t go that far as Avios changed their mind and agreed to reroute me per EU261, so I didn’t need to proceed with the claim in the end.

Also, the form requires you to confirm that you have not attempted / are not attempting to recover losses from another party (e.g. insurance) – so presumably you need to do Section 75 claim first, and only if that doesn’t work, proceed down other routes (if you feel you still have a case, of course), e.g. insurance, MCOL etc. Which is interesting, because I imagine many of us might assume to try insurance first, before ‘getting legal’?

Hope that’s useful.
- Harry T says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 09:30
  
  Based on my gf’s experience, you won’t ever actually receive a resolution to your section 75 claim!
  - The real John says:
    
    23 Dec23 December 09:49
    
    Same here, they refunded the transactions and 6 months later they took the money back saying I hadn’t provided the necessary info. Eventually got £200 compo after complaint
    - Jon says:
      
      23 Dec23 December 10:05
      
      Interesting, both. Are you able to elaborate at all on what the circumstances were? E.g. was it clear breach of EU261, or something else? Harry, what was your gf claiming for, e.g. refund or consequential loss?
      
      I’d be interested to know how smoothly (or not!) S75 claims go when the cause is a clear-cut breach of the law.
- Aston100 says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 10:43
  
  My s75 experience with Amex this year:
  s75 against FlyBe back in Feb this year was completed in well under a month, possibly 3 weeks IIRC.
  s75 against EasyJet has been open since start of June with no progress.
- Charlieface says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 14:31
  
  They have no basis for insisting you don’t try recover costs elsewhere. Obviously if you get those costs back you cannot claim from Amex, but equally they cannot demand that you go to insurance claim first, or that you go to the retailer (BA) first.
BJ says:

23 Dec23 December 05:14

BA refund requests during past three days: are people still receiving their avios and 2-4-1 vouchers credited back to their BAEC accounts within 24h or is there a delay?
- The Hunter says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 07:16
  
  I cancelled 2 Avios flights yesterday late morning and, having checked just now, can see the 241 used one one of the bookings has been returned. Didn’t use one for the other. Just FYI BA CS were generally excellent, having had to also speak to another person re upgrading one leg of another flight – very pleased!
- Craig says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 08:35
  
  Cancelled BKK flight booked as two singles with the Avios adjusted after booking the return. The outbound was refunded immediately for 241 and Avios, three days for the Amex statement credit. The return I was told 21 days, 7 days down 14 to go.
  - Jane says:
    
    23 Dec23 December 08:39
    
    I’ve just been told 28 days as it needs to be manually refunded due to changes being made after the original booking. similar thing happened to my mum recently but it was a lot longer than 28 days (probably around 8 weeks)
    - Cathy says:
      
      23 Dec23 December 08:45
      
      I have been waiting since BA cancelled my flights in July. Refund was done in November but still waiting for avios and 2-1 voucher due to it having to be manual due to changes. Rang about four times in all and used a twitter message twice, they can only say it is complicated and will be done soon. The call centre had said if no changes and straightforward 48 hours otherwise they can’t say
  - Bagoly says:
    
    23 Dec23 December 16:59
    
    Apologies if this has been covered before but
    
    I had two Avios bookings (cash element £1) cancelled by BA (flights in May 2020, I waited until now hoping processes would improve) and when I claimed cancellation selecting “Avios” yesterda, I got an email for each saying: “your booking isn’t eligible to claim Avios instead of a cash refund or future travel voucher. This is because this offer is not applicable to short haul Avios bookings”
    ??!!
    Should I have selected “Cash” which actually means refund the Avios and Cash paid, or are they really trying to give me cash for Avios? I thought they wanted to conserve cash?
- BJ says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 09:57
  
  Thanks everybody, based on my experience avios and vouchers always came back immediately. Not arrived within 24h this time so I think I’ll give them another call as I want to use the 2-4-1.
  - Cat says:
    
    23 Dec23 December 10:42
    
    Hey BJ, long time no see! How are you? Merry Xmas!
    - BJ says:
      
      23 Dec23 December 14:42
      
      Thanks @Cat, you too, seems no time since you were seeking advice on Japanese whisky last Christma. All is well, back at work for a while and it’s keeping me very busy so I don’t get as much time as I like for HfP at the moment.
      - Cat says:
        
        23 Dec23 December 15:43
        
        It’s hard to believe it’s been a year (perhaps because it’s been such a dull one!). The Japanese whisky is all gone now – it’s all about the overpriced Burning Sky beer this year!
        Where is work? Being back in school this term has just kept me hellishly busy too – I’ve hardly been seen on the HfP chat threads either.
        I hope you’re managing to have some fun over Christmas, despite the ‘rona madness!
Baji Nahid says:

23 Dec23 December 05:30

Seen in the inventory that BA have canned LGW-JFK and LHR-PIT/CHS (Pittsburgh and Charleston)
Jon says:

23 Dec23 December 06:30

@Laurence Dalby – you asked yesterday whether Avios flights rerouted onto MH retain the original cancellation rights. I still don’t know for sure, but in trying to find out, I did discover that full fare rules for a given fare bucket can be found via ITA Matrix (which may be easier than trying to find them on BA.com! 😉

E.g. my rerouted tickets appear to be going into fare class I, so I searched Matrix using the advanced control codes to specify BA and fare class I (C:BA and F BC=I). Select a flight from the resulting list, then there’s a little ‘rules’ link buried in the text. I couldn’t find anything for KUL, but trying SIN and HKG it looks like the rules are the same except that the change/cancellation/no-show fees vary.

It looks like these fees depend on the origin city for your journey. So for example, starting in London, the fees appear to be GBP300 for cancellation, and GBP300 plus fare difference for voluntary changes, per person. Starting in Hong Kong, 2000HKD / 1400HKD plus fare difference. Singapore, 100SGD / 150SGD plus fare difference. I imagine they might be lower starting in KUL, but I don’t know.

Not cheap, but at least change/cancellation is allowed, by the looks of it.

What I don’t know though is whether, as an involuntary reroute, these fare rules would be overridden by those of the original ticket – I’d like to think they ought to be, but I don’t know. But at least this (I *think*…) shows what the rules would be if that’s not the case. But of course best to check with the agent for your specific flight. I’d hope BA might send the exact rules along with the reissued tickets, so that there’s certainty, but I’m not holding my breath 😉

I was hoping to post links here to the actual rules pages on Matrix, but it seems they’re session dependent, so won’t work. You’ll need to run your own search if so inclined – https://matrix.itasoftware.com/
- Jonathan says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 07:53
  
  This isn’t quite right. Whilst there are general principles that apply to some fare classes eg. Y, W, J & F will be refundable & Q, G, I etc not you need to check the specific rules for the ticket you purchased.
  
  Some differences are eg. Ex EU I class are usually changeable whereas ex UK are not. Equally corporate fares might book from R class availability but have J flexibility.
  
  The fare will have a specific code & rules eg. INCEUR53. The first letter is the fare class. The rest refer to origin & specific rules. In this case an ex EU I class fare will book the short haul connection into J bucket but it won’t be flexible like a normal J class.
  
  Unfortunately BA don’t provide a link to full fare rules when you book, just the key cancellation/rebooking terms. You need a travel agent or someone with an ExpertFlyer subscription to look up full rules.
  
  When you’re rebooked the original fare rules will apply. The only advantage is if you have a cash I class that’s rebooked into a higher bucket due to cancellation etc. then you’ll get the higher Avios/Tier Points.
  - Jon says:
    
    23 Dec23 December 08:50
    
    Thanks @Jonathan, that’s useful detail. Just to check – is it definitely the case that the original fare rules will still apply to a rebooked/rerouted flight? I.e. do you know for certain? I’d like to think that is the case, but I have no evidence / concrete proof for it yet. I’m sure others would like to know too! 😉
    
    NB for those who don’t have an ExpertFlyer subscription, the full fare rules can be freely seen on ITA Matrix (assuming you can find your exact flight of course, and know how to use the advanced controls to specify the fare bucket). Unless you’re saying that even within the same fare bucket on the same flight, the rules may vary depending on other factors (e.g. corporate rate etc)? Ouch 😉
    
    But yes, only way to be certain is to check the rules on your specific ticket. Obviously it would be a lot easier if BA actually did provide the full rules at the various before/during/after stages of the booking process 😉 (Surely they must be in breach of some obligation or other by not doing so?!)
    - Jonathan says:
      
      23 Dec23 December 11:06
      
      Yes, the original fare rules definitely apply as that is your contract with BA. They’ve essentially subcontracted with MH to rebook you but that’s an issue for them not you. You may get a phone agent who is mistaken from a first glance at the booking but there will be an endorsement (or note) on the e-ticket to show that it’s an involuntary reroute with a link to the original fare rules.
      
      Unfortunately there can be multiple fares for an I class ticket on each route. Every different price will have its own rules so eg. there may be I class fares for LHR-JFK at £999 with 128 day advance purchase requirement & a travel window of only Tuesday-Thursday in Jan & Feb or another for £1300 that allows travel any day of the week as long as it includes a Saturday night & only has 28 day advance purchase. Some fares appear for a few days & then they’re gone forever (like the £999 747 sale) whereas others are always available (normally the fully flexible ones).
      
      To get the specific rules you need to know the date you purchased & price paid, then you can trawl through expertflyer to find the exact rules. Otherwise you can look on ITA matrix on the day you buy the ticket & screenshot the specific rules. Unfortunately ITA Matrix won’t show you historical fare information.
      - Jon says:
        
        23 Dec23 December 11:19
        
        Got it, thanks @Jonathan, that’s good to know 🙂
  - john says:
    
    23 Dec23 December 10:54
    
    Can you be bound by fare rules if they don’t actually provide them to you?
    - Jon says:
      
      23 Dec23 December 11:20
      
      Good question! I’m sure BA would say Yes… 😉
- BP says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 10:33
  
  Just hope that they don’t shut MH down at the end of the Month…
  
  https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2020/12/22/malaysia-airlines-restructure-expected-by-year-end/
  - Jon says:
    
    23 Dec23 December 11:05
    
    Not sure why Business Traveller even bother reporting that lol. Maybe it’s a slow news day 😉 Total non-story. Much the same thing gets said over here every other week and nothing ever comes of it. I’d be amazed if MH disappears, especially now that they’re the only direct flight to London. The loss of face for Malaysia would be immense (and that sort of thing matters far more in this part of the world than perhaps in the West). Not impossible, but highly improbable, in my view. I still think they should sell themselves to IAG… 😉
    
    Sidenote: opportunity for Virgin to serve KUL from London?
- Aston100 says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 10:48
  
  Not sure if this is applicable to you, but when I was rebooked onto Malaysia Airlines the other day, BA agent told me I can still cancel and get my avios and companion voucher back, for £35 per person.
  - Jon says:
    
    23 Dec23 December 11:09
    
    Good to know, thanks. Do you have that confirmed in writing by any chance? 😉
    
    I still have the other half of my companion voucher yet to use. I was planning to think about it closer to outbound departure date (I *think* you have to add the return booking before departure, IIRC). Will be interesting to see whether the rerouting affects my ability to do that. I would assume not, but as with all things BA, who knows…;-)
    - Aston100 says:
      
      23 Dec23 December 11:38
      
      “Good to know, thanks. Do you have that confirmed in writing by any chance?”
      
      Of course not!
      I’ve been told all sorts of different & conflicting things by BA in the last week or so, some of which has been straight up nonsense (not allowed a refund, only an FTV if BA cancel my flight etc), so who knows if the comment about being able to cancel my rebooked flight for £35 and get avios + companion voucher back is true or not?
      - Jon says:
        
        23 Dec23 December 11:44
        
        Lol, I feel your pain 😉
        
        But per @Jonathan’s comment above, it sounds like you’ve been told the truth for once 😉 I’ll be looking out for the ‘invol reroute’ endorsement on the tickets, when they come through…
Bagoly says:

23 Dec23 December 06:41

Heathrow Rewards:
Under Rewards | Transfer, for each airline partner it says “Available until 31/12/2020”.
Has it always showed an expiry date, and they just roll it over to the next year, or do we think there is a material risk of cancellation/devaluation?

I have been keeping my points as Heathrow Rewards because:
a) flexibility for which scheme I transfer to
b) prolonging the start of expiry in some schemes.
But I don’t want to be stuck with just Heathrow vouchers.
- Andrew says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 07:02
  
  Or worse still, nothing with a bankrupt Heathrow
- Rob says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 07:51
  
  My gut feeling is that this is just another weird feature they added as part of their (poor) website redesign and doesn’t mean anything. I’m sitting on 8,000 points so I have a vested interest.
  - Bagoly says:
    
    23 Dec23 December 10:06
    
    I have an order of magnitude more than that.
    Trying a small transfer to M&M, one has to enter the membership number, OK, and then the M&M pin (in a visible field) – more evidence of poor rebuild.
    But worse, it then gives the error “Server side error message”, and does not transfer.
    
    They should have had Lady London advise them on how to test!
    - Rob says:
      
      23 Dec23 December 11:13
      
      The whole site is shocking (says the man who did an entire site redesign himself this year). It is really hard to design a site so bad because it requires you to keep anyone who has a HR account – and so knows what they want to see – away from the process!
HayMow says:

23 Dec23 December 07:31

Bought some of the $10 Dragonpass lounge passes via Red by Dufry back in Jan which were to expire 31/12. Am sure these were in my Dragonpass app, but can’t now log in to that (still have the ID & password but it now requires an activation code I don’t have & can’t see how to get). Anyone know:
– if pass validity has been extended across the board?
– how to get the new app access activation code
– or if I’ll need to phone up to cancel the passes & request a refund?
TIA
- JohnT says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 08:14
  
  I queried expiry date by using feedback form in app, reply came back quick … “confirm that your membership will automatically renew in January 2021 for another 12 months. Renewal is free of charge and any unused visits will also roll over for another 12 months.”
- Aston100 says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 10:46
  
  I have received confirmations twice from Dragonpass that my passes will renew for next year.
- the_real_a says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 13:07
  
  It was explained to me that the passes dont expire, but the underlying membership does. Renewing the membership with cash, or via partner membership (i.e. dufry) and presumably now with the covid free year of membership will allow the passes to be redeemed. i.e. you need a valid membership for the passes to be used but the passes still remain on a dormant account.
  
  I have screenshotted the page where it says passes can be refunded at any time – in case a S75 is required.
- HayMow says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 16:08
  
  Thanks v much everyone – that’s a relief! Seem to still have Silver Dufry so will check when that’s until and also query Dragonpass, taking screenshots/ keeping copies then.
Gruntfuttock says:

23 Dec23 December 08:22

Happy story time. Needed to amend 241 flight dates booked last February for LHR – NBO CW planned for next February as I decided that proceeding with safari holiday was ill advised for multiple reasons. Identified available flights next September but BA. com wouldn’t play ball so took a deep breath and phoned Executive Club Silver CS. Answered within two minutes, sorted in ten. Excellent service agent who did all the FTV malarkey there and then. Furthermore, got a modest refund on the taxes! Bonanza! 🥳 Original flights had new Club cabin but September / October ones have everyone’s yin yang favourite, 🙄 Merry Christmas
- KP says:
  
  23 Dec23 December 11:10
  
  sometimes BA uses the refurbished 777 with Club Suite to NBO……so you’re not yet totally out of luck yet. Plus more 777 are getting refurbished each months…so probability is increasing
  - Gruntfuttock says:
    
    23 Dec23 December 11:14
    
    Cheers! I count myself very fortunate regardless but thanks for this 🥂