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The HfP chat thread – Saturday 19th December

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Comments (372)

This article is closed to new posts. Discussion continues in the HfP Forums.

  • Benilyn says:
    19 Dec19 December 09:55

    IHG Free Nights via Creation:
    I had 2 nights of which expiring 31-Dec-2020 and one in 2022. Then the third night appeared expiring Aug-21. I now made two bookings (for Nov-2021) which used up the 31-Dec-2020 voucher + 2022 voucher. Now the “new voucher” does not allow me to book for later than Aug-21 – I tried for Nov-21 but does not let me by showing no availability, but it does let me book for Feb-21 for example.

    If anyone finds a work around, would be interesting to hear. Do hotels let you move bookings over the phone if you call them directly?

    • Anna says:
      19 Dec19 December 10:17

      I don’t know if I was being fobbed off but the only time I’ve asked a hotel about this I was told that individual properties can’t move points or free night stays, you have to cancel and re-book.

    • Doug M says:
      19 Dec19 December 11:50

      It seems like the 31st Dec voucher has been ‘extended’ via a new voucher with a 31st August expiry. But the 31st Aug voucher seems to be a stay by rather than a book by.
      Complete guess on my part, but this was being reported on FT a few days ago, and the US vouchers have different terms to UK ones, and I’m wondering if in a rush their IT just did a muddled job. In the US they seem to mention two cards, and the terms of the vouchers issued are different to each other and the UK one.

      • Benilyn says:
        19 Dec19 December 16:20

        Annoying maybe it is… anyone have an email for IHG maybe I could try get it changed to any day stay 😬 sounds like they gave US style ones which usually have a 40k cap but this time came with no cap

  • Jon says:
    19 Dec19 December 10:23

    Re BA cancelled flights, as discussed in recent days… Does anyone have a definitive / authoritative legal source for the claim that reroute is not dependent on availability of Avios / award seats? I know Rhys said that in the article the other day, and several others have said the same in the comments, but do we have an actual piece of legislation or case law that confirms that? Or are we taking the phrase “subject to availability of seats” within EU261 itself as meaning that, since it does not explicitly say “in the same fare class” or some such? I believe the latter, but is there anything to formally confirm that?

    I ask because BA are still saying that Avios seats must be available for a reroute, so something legal and definitive to quote at them would be handy 😉

    Also, does anyone have a number for BA Customer Relations that actually works (the one they have me doesn’t…)? Or an email.

    Thanks all.

    • meta says:
      19 Dec19 December 11:05

      Read the full EC261 text. Article 3.3. mentions this specifically and also you need to look at the definition of ‘ticket’

      I just had BA settle on MCOL claim for reroute for tickets booked on Avios.

      In terms of contacting them, you can only contact CS via web form or over the phone. I suggest via web form as you then have written proof.

      • Jon says:
        19 Dec19 December 11:24

        Thanks meta. I’ve read the whole thing through many times 😉 Not that that means I might not have missed something, of course!

        The challenge for me is that, while 3.3 explicitly includes redemption tickets as being eligible for EU261 provisions, and 8.1(c) provides for re-routing ‘subject to availability of seats’, I can’t see anything that makes it explicit that ‘availability of seats’ means *any* seat (not just an award seat or a seat at an interline rate, or a seat in the exact same fare bucket as originally booked etc). I would take it to mean any seat (because presumably if it meant otherwise it would have said so), but what I’m after is something that makes that absolutely unarguably definitive – e.g. a legal precedent, perhaps. Not so much for tickets originally being booked on Avios and getting a reroute, but for the reroute not depending on Avios availability on the replacement flight.

        • meta says:
          19 Dec19 December 11:39

          The title of article 3 is « Scope » and you don’t need legal precedents. It is clear from legislation. You won’t find much cases, if any, as BA settles usually before it goes to hearing. You have this right by definition and scope of legislation. BA will try it on even when you submit the claim until the very last moment. They’ll ask for extensions all in the hopes you will back down.

          • Anna says:
            19 Dec19 December 12:02

            Agreed, you can quote legislation until you’re blue in the face and they will continue to insist it doesn’t apply to them! When I called to re-route our cancelled AUH flights yesterday, the first thing the CSA said was “The only re-route we are offering is to Dubai”. Fortunately I’m more than happy to go to Dubai as I’m not in the mood for a fight just now, 2020 has sucked all the energy out of me … !

          • Anna says:
            19 Dec19 December 12:04

            Especially as I got the flights in the avios half price sale and cash prices on that route are now nearly £2800 pp in J!

          • Jon says:
            19 Dec19 December 12:48

            Forgive me, but to my mind it’s not clear from the legislation 😉

            I think the problem is that BA are evidently interpreting ‘availability of seats’ in 8.1c to mean ‘availability of seats of the same type / fare bucket as originally booked’, whereas we’re all saying it means literally any seat, regardless of type or price. How do we prove which is correct? Unless there is (is there?) a legal convention or some such that makes it mean nothing more or less than those three words?

            Much as we’re saying it means any seat (which is absolutely my understanding of it, so I’m not disagreeing with you, just trying to find a watertight way of convincing BA), isn’t there an argument that if the EU had meant that, they would have worded it as something like ‘subject to availability of seats in any fare class’ or ‘subject to there physically being an available seat on the plane’ etc? Which is presumably the argument BA is relying on.

            @Anna – totally 😉 They seem to be of the view that their policy trumps the law…

          • Anna says:
            19 Dec19 December 13:07

            Jon – they have always been so and it doesn’t matter what you quote to them! I imagine there are other cases, but meta’s experience shows that the re-route is a legal requirement. Depending on avios seat availability would just be too narrow to legislate on anyway, it only applies to a minority of carriers.

          • meta says:
            19 Dec19 December 13:36

            @Jon comparable transport conditions (under 8.1 b&c) is the key and if BA don’t have seats then they have to put you on another airline in the same class. This has been tried and tested over and over again. In my case, one agent even admitted they are liable, but are not going to pay up. The problem is that to enforce it you can either purchase the next ticket yourself and sue BA or claim S75 from your credit card. Either way BA will be pay in the end. It just depends how soon is your flight and whether you can win MCOL or S75 claim in time. I remember reading about a case on Flyertalk where one passenger won a case for reroute at MCOL, but it was too late as his flight has already taken off.

            If it is still not clear in your mind and you don’t trust our advice here, then you’re free to seek professional legal advice elsewhere.

          • Jon says:
            19 Dec19 December 14:29

            @meta – oh i trust you and believe you; I share your view of it. It’s just that ultimately we’re all just a bunch of people on the internet, and (with no disrespect at all meant to Rob and team) HfP is just a blog. Until there’s something that sets in stone what we are all saying, BA will continue to fob us off and we’ll all keep having to go to MCOL etc.

          • Lady London says:
            20 Dec20 December 00:07

            @Jon people on this blog have been around a long time sharing live cases of how EU261 works, what succeeds, etc. If @meta’s telling you, you dont need an avios seat to be available on the flight you’re being rerouted to : just any seat in same cabin whether available for cash or avios : then that will be because the same query has come up many many times before literally over *years* and the core of posters on here have answered this question many times correctly as meta did.

            We are now through many generations of newbies asking the same questions. Because airlines keep saying the same bull$hit to scare off people.

            I would take this opportunity to suggest you double-check the years-long threads and wiki sections on Flyertalk which will also show multiple examples of what @meta has told you. The info is also repeatedly here on HfP, and recently, in multiple cases although Flyertalk is better optimised for searching.

            HUACA will probably sort it easiest with BA. The only advice to add would be call soom after 8.30am on a weekday if you can and HUACA again if you have the misfortune to land with BA’s India call centre as some of the worst cases of intrasigent incorrectness seem to come from there.

        • Jon says:
          20 Dec20 December 03:04

          Thanks all.

          @ladylondon: I’ve been around since the beginning of HfP 😉 I think i’ve seen most of the comments re EU261… Very much not a newbie 😉 Although I’ve not yet had to go all the way to MCOL.

          Not taking issue with any of the comments or advice here (very much appreciated). But the (slightly Monty Python-esque!) scenario I’m imagining is going to court and something like this happening:
          Me: EU261 obliges BA to reroute my Avios ticket, into a revenue seat if there’s no reward availability.
          BA: No it doesn’t, there has to be Avios availability.
          Me: No, that’s not what the law says.
          BA: Yes it is, prove otherwise.
          Me: There have been many, many previous cases confirming this.
          BA: No there haven’t. Prove it.
          Me: Er, well lots of people on the internet said so.

          I was hoping we might have something a little more substantial than that! 😉 Preferably avoiding the need for action in the first place.

          I think what I’ll do is trawl back through HfP (might be a good test of the new search function! 😉 and also FlyerTalk to see if I can find specific examples of people saying: ‘My Avios (or other miles redemption) tickets were rerouted into a revenue seat’, i.e. voluntarily by BA, without having to go to MCOL, as that would show they’ve been willing to do it before, and shows that they do indeed understand it to mean *any* seat. If anyone already has links to such examples, please do share.

          @Ols: that’s the exact situation I’m in – Avios + 241. I’ve got others using Avios + Lloyds voucher, and also partner miles redemption… I have absolutely no doubt that these flights are covered by EU261; but convincing BA that Avios seats need not be available on the reroute flight is the sticking point.

          I’m reluctant to go MCOL as the amount of money I’d have to front for replacement flights while waiting for judgement is substantial. But I will if I have to. I think Section 75 will be my next route.

          Question for anyone who may know – am I right to assume that making a s75 claim does not then preclude going MCOL later if s75 fails? Though presumably s75 failure might make MCOL success less likely…

          Am I also correct to understand that the process for s75, after establishing that BA aren’t going to play ball, and having notes/recordings of calls etc, is to book the replacement flight *then* make the s75 claim – or does one make the claim, get permission to rebook, and only then book the replacement flights?

          Thanks again, all.

    • Ols says:
      19 Dec19 December 13:51

      I have 2 questions.

      1. Has anyone been successfully rerouted on a different airline after this recent set of cancellations when a 2-4-1 voucher was part of the booking?

      2. Apologies as it’s probably been answered many times, but what is the process for taking BA to arbitration on this? And can you do it prior to the actual date of your cancelled flights?

      • meta says:
        19 Dec19 December 14:24

        1. Too early to know and probably BA denied.
        2. I am not entirely sure. Lady London can chip in. If BA cancelled the route altogether and flight is months away, I believe you could purchase the ticket on a new airline and MCOL them. Of course, if you can’t afford it then do S75 claim.

        If you look at one of the previous daily threads (can’t remember which day) I briefly outlined timeline and process for MCOL. You don’t have to go to CEDR first.

        • ols says:
          19 Dec19 December 15:40

          Thanks for this. So S75 applies and the cc company is responsible to get you a ticket even if you only paid taxes?

          • Lady London says:
            20 Dec20 December 00:24

            yes

            chargeback gives you only what you paid

            Section 75 which applies by law to all UK credit cards also covers consequential losses eg necesssary cost of replacement ticket even if higher.

            moneysavingexpert has the best general info on s75. Note MSE travel section (different section)often doesnt get it quite right. Some commenterd there are completely inaccurate. So dont stray into the travel section there. For the UK on non-trivial travel the most knowledgeable forum is HfP by far.

        • meta says:
          19 Dec19 December 15:44

          @Jon even if it is set in stone which EC261 is, BA will continue to fob passengers off. The thing is that BA will not let it go to hearing because then it becomes public. Their tactic is to wear you out. You just have to persist.

      • Lady London says:
        20 Dec20 December 00:15

        241, seat bought at reduced rate in a promotion, seat given free in a packet of cornflakes : each seat has same full value rights and remedies.

      • Lady London says:
        20 Dec20 December 00:36

        1. pretty sure on this same thread yesterday and previous day 3 or 4 different posters mentioned being rerouted on CX and QR

        2. meta’s sequence was postef about 3 days ago. Basically you ask BA about 3 times keeping notes, screenshots, or even recordings. If BA says final answer or similar, or does not respond or no resolution after about 8 weeks of trying (any of those,) then do MCOL as per meta. Or can also CEDR (I prefer MCOL as less chance of perverse judgment).

  • AG says:
    19 Dec19 December 10:28

    Does anyone know the opening ours of the Eurostar lounge right now? Google says mon-fri 5pm close in one place and 7pm in another… no info on the official website. My train is at 6pm… surely they will keep it open until boarding?

    Thank you.

  • Rjn21 says:
    19 Dec19 December 11:25

    Has anyone received the Hilton Diamond nominate a friend to gold / diamond email?

    I haven’t received anything (multi year diamond but not ‘for life’).

  • Dan says:
    19 Dec19 December 11:33

    Currently on hold with VS due to cancelled flights. WhatsApp has previously been a really good tool for them but now only pointing to a rebooking form rather than a refund. 40 minutes so far – very disappointing!

    • Dan says:
      19 Dec19 December 12:01

      OK, so I got through after an hour… just as I tried WhatsApp again.
      Q1 Are you contacting us about a flight cancellation or significant schedule change? 1 Yes 2 No. Select 2! You get – and the questions are more straight forward after that.
      Q2 To help us get you to the right place, please select your choice:
      6) Discuss a refund or flight cancellation

      • Travel Strong says:
        19 Dec19 December 12:43

        Yep – you get cut off if you press 1 on the whatsapp text. 2 for everything!

    • Tom1 says:
      19 Dec19 December 15:09

      I find 7am the best time to call virgin right now. Usually get through within a minute or so.

  • Blindman says:
    19 Dec19 December 11:37

    Stupid Q

    I’m trying to book an Open Jaw BA trip on-line and am trying to make it into a package by adding a hotel (or car) so I only pay a deposit now.

    However regardless of what I add to the flights (Hotel or car) I end up at the payment page paying the FULL amount.

    Any ideas what I’m doing wrong here?

    Is it because it’s an Open Jaw that I cannot make it into a Package?

    Cheers

    • Anna says:
      19 Dec19 December 12:07

      You don’t give details of what exactly you’re trying to book, however I’ve had this problem in the past and it seemed to be a browser issue. Try a different browser and/or device and see if it makes a difference. BA did try to tell me when I queried it with them that holiday packages only work when you book a car or hotel for the full stay, but it turned out not to be true (surprise!).

      • Blindman says:
        19 Dec19 December 12:27

        I’m booking a flight of my choosing then adding a car.

        If I go through the Holiday option to start with the flight that gets chosen for me is Economy + luggage-Which I do not want.

        Could I book this “holiday” over the phone”? (God forbid)

        • Anna says:
          19 Dec19 December 13:12

          You can book by phone but they charge a fee. You need to go to the BA home page and select “Flight plus car” then “create custom trip”. You should be able to choose whichever class of flight you want – BUT note that you need to be in the same class both ways, if you want to mix cabins you will need to call. They will waive the fee in that case because you can’t book it online.

        • Jonathan says:
          19 Dec19 December 13:22

          BA Holidays don’t/won’t sell you hand baggage only economy fares. You can add a hotel/car to a HBO ticket & get ABTA protection (think you need to phone) but it’s not a BAH so you can’t benefit from the deposit arrangement, it’s full price at booking.

          There’s normally no or minimal price penalty booking an economy with luggage holiday package vs HBO flight & hotel/car add on though.

          • Blindman says:
            19 Dec19 December 13:48

            Thanks both for the replies.

            One last Q.

            The Book with confidence guarantee:-

            Changing the dates of the trip:-
            I cannot see the time limits for changing the trip dates?
            I assume it cannot be more than 355 days into the future due to the ticket system limits but is that the only limit?

            Does this time limit apply to when I booked or when the trip is supposed to start\end?

            Getting a voucher for future travel looks too restrictive (April 2022)

            Cheers

  • Ian_H says:
    19 Dec19 December 12:12

    Does anyone have any experience of whether the 6 Dragonpass Lounge visits with Barclays Travel Pack expire if not used or roll over to next year?

    Even when I’ve been travelling the lounges haven’t always been open and for the first time have an approaching anniversary date and unused visits.

  • Kevin says:
    19 Dec19 December 12:36

    Does anyone know which Hilton/IHG hotel in London sell gift card or voucher that can be used for future booking across others properties, including Asia/Europe.

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