Hear Head for Points on Radio 4’s ‘You and Yours’ today, hopefully …

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• Save East Coast Rewards says:

  11 May11 May 04:33

  They should have someone on from Virgin Trains East Coast explaining why they scrapped a great loyalty scheme that could have poached a lot of domestic passengers from BA after the devaluation, but instead they went with Nectar which meant that Avios was still the better scheme for points earning.

  If he doesn’t already, I think Raffles needs to offer consultancy services on creating an attractive loyalty scheme. I’m sure he could have come up with something for Virgin Trains East Coast that was still attractive to the customer but addressed any issues they had with the previous scheme.

  • TomTom says:

    11 May11 May 06:35

    Please let this drop.

    • Mr(s) Entitled says:

      11 May11 May 08:10

      At what point can we report this as spam?

    • Jonny Kyle says:

      11 May11 May 10:19

      Why?

  • DONE4 says:

    11 May11 May 09:20

    *yawn* Please stop, the battle is lost.

    • Save East Coast Rewards says:

      11 May11 May 10:04

      Why be so determined for me to give up? I do post on here occasionally but what harm is it doing?

      The fact is we lost the most generous loyalty scheme in the UK and this was originally spun by Virgin as a good thing.

      Virgin are a company that prides itself in listening to customers. Well that’s what they say, but reality is different.

      We still believe we can get something better than Nectar, but we have to be persistent. They will have expected some sort of negative reaction but probably expected it to fizzle out within weeks so they were then free to crank up the marketing about how they listen to customers (have a look at the ‘Red Report’ on the VTEC website which shows how they claim to listen).

      Feel free to report this as spam. I’ll respect Rob’s decision (he has my contact details) but in my mind I raised an appropriate comment. If VTEC had kept rewards they would have been in a position to win over disillusioned BA passengers on domestic flights. Instead passengers are going the other way.

      • Trickster says:

        11 May11 May 19:43

        It’s taken me a couple of reads to realise you are not taking about VTEC, the manufacturer of kids electronic toys!! 🙂

        • ankomonkey says:

          11 May11 May 20:36

          I thought that at first, too!

    • Jonny Kyle says:

      11 May11 May 10:21

      The battle isn’t lost. It’s just beginning. DB are debating a similar system due to demand and possible benefits to them.
      We’re not just gonna give up.

    • Michael says:

      11 May11 May 10:29

      Whats wrong with you people!? Do you all just give up because you think its not worth fighting for?!

      As Jonny and Save EC Rewards say, this is just the beginning. Virgin pride themselves on being a “friendly brand” that listen to customer feedback, act on it and act in the best interests of their customers.

      So far (probably due to the Stagecoach majority shareholding) They have ignored their most loyal customers and have fobbed them all off with Nectar which anyone with any common sense will know you have to literally spend thousands to get any kind of return.

      The Save EC Rewards campaign has been well documented on social media, radio and news websites and their is much support for it.

      If you dont like the comments then get off the forum – no one is forcing you to be here!

      Companies like Virgin get very complacent the larger they get and they need reminding that they should listen to customers and not fob them off with rubbish!

      • Save East Coast Rewards says:

        11 May11 May 11:31

        I don’t think it’s Stagecoach that’s the reason they don’t listen. Virgin are no different to any other company they just like to pretend to be.

        East Coast is still the best railway service in the country (overall, there’s certain individual services such as the FGW Pullman trains that beat it but on average VTEC beats FGW when you compare all services).

        We need to show passenger power. If VTEC choose to cut something we like then they need to know we’re not going to take it lightly.

        The fact that so many are willing to complain about the scrapping of rewards sends out a message that we’re expecting the highest standards.

        The ECML line is relatively unique in that it has some sort of competition which means they can’t completely ignore us (although some of it is provided by other Stagecoach companies, but we won’t include those). Hull Trains provides most of the ECML services to Hull but serves intermediate stations on the ECML too. Grand Central is an alternative to the north east and Yorkshire. CrossCountry operates over the ECML between Doncaster and Scotland. Great Northern competes for commuter traffic between Peterborough and London. Longer distance flights compete for London-Scotland, Newcastle and even Leeds.

        • Mr(s) Entitled says:

          11 May11 May 12:27

          You had “the most generous loyalty scheme in the UK”. Now a commercial company has removed it. Tough doo-doo.

          Recalibrate your spending. Decide on it’s worth to you. Move forward.

        • Save East Coast Rewards says:

          11 May11 May 13:16

          There’s always been a rewards scheme on the ECML ever since privatisation. The GNER scheme was particularly generous for high spenders, NXEC looked dreadful by comparison but is miles better than what we have now.

          Virgin claim to be better, they claim to be different. In reality they’ve treated their loyal customers worse than anyone before them.

          More info on the GNER and NXEC schemes here: http://saveecrewards.co.uk/review/forgetting-your-best-customers

          They did try and spin Nectar as something better for their customers, we will continue to pull them up on it any time they try and claim that.

        • Mikeact says:

          11 May11 May 13:58

          Sounds reasonable to me…these guys need to think themselves lucky that they don’t have to travel each day on Southern. ..if they ever have a loyalty scheme, it should be points for an on time arrival, and then they could essily get the Freddie Award for the worlds worst loyalty scheme.

        • Save East Coast Rewards says:

          11 May11 May 14:51

          Mikeact: I have to use Greater Anglia a couple of times a month! That is a painful experience and it has to be worse for the daily commuters than anything Southern can throw at you.

          Still it does seem to be a battle of the TOCs around London to see if they can be the worst! Govia (Southern, SouthEastern, Thameslink) v Abellio (Greater Anglia). The only one I’d rate at all is Stagecoach’s South West Trains.

          Fortunately most of my commuting is via London Overground. I positioned myself to specifically avoid the nightmare TOCs whenever possible.

          But Southern and its woes have nothing to do with East Coast Rewards, in fact at least one of our supporters lives in the Southern area and earned many free East Coast tickets buy buying all Southern tickets on the East Coast website.

        • callum says:

          11 May11 May 12:52

          You’re being utterly ridiculous. It constantly astounds me that you STILL believe it could be news to Virgin that people prefer a more generous reward system to a less generous reward system. They know full well and your continual ranting on the matter isn’t doing anything whatsoever. The fact that “so many are willing to complain” means precisely nothing – people complain all the time, it doesn’t mean they’re going to do anything about it.

          You’re a minuscule minority that can be easily ignored by Virgin, and are just wasting your time. But if you want to continue on some warped “principle” then go ahead.

        • Michael says:

          11 May11 May 13:36

          Callum – have you read any of the Save EC Rewards website?

          I dont think anyone thinks its news to Virgin that people feel cheated by a less generous rewards programme – what people are (rightly) angry about is that Virgin keep banging on about how this is what people wanted.

          They surved about 1800 random customers, and say they all prefer Nectar, but when pressed on it they refuse to release any of the research to back this up which suggests that it was a heavily biased bit of research designed to help them implement Nectar.

          While you might not be bothered about the rewards scheme or think its a waste of time, imagine when they start putting up fares, scrapping advanced purchased cheaper tickets or reducing services, claiming that “thats what customers wanted”

          I don’t think Save EC Rewards are saying they should just bring back the scheme as if nothing has happened – they are probably in contract with Nectar anyway, but what they ARE saying is that you cant just fob people off with marketing rubbish and then expect them to just swallow it up without questionning it and STILL market yourselves as a brand that listens to customers.

          If it was Ryanair it would be a different story – Michael O’Leary is quite happy to say that he doesnt care what customers think and if you dont like it go elsewhere, but Branson has built his buisness around the customer, so do you not think they should be called to account when they start fobbing people off with rubbish?

        • Save East Coast Rewards says:

          11 May11 May 14:33

          What those asking us to shut up have not answered is why did Virgin do this in the first place? There were no other changes from day one and the scheme was profitable (we have evidence from a Freedom of Information request to show that).

          It seems like a Virgin knows best attitude, as if they assumed the majority would be willing to accept Nectar as it’s a big name scheme. There was no reason that they couldn’t have kept rewards on day 1, then launched a proper consultation.

          BA devalued (and I’ve not told any of you to get over it!) but in the end they still kept a scheme that rewards you for flying and has an emphasis on rewarding their best customers.

          VTEC on the other hand switched from a scheme that encouraged you to get the train, to one that meant if you wanted to benefit at all you needed to change your supermarket, petrol station and get a Nectar credit card, even so it’d still not come close.

          It’s a really nonsensical decision. Nectar is the scheme used by First Group. Book on a First website (e.g. FGW, Hull Trains, etc) and get Nectar on all travel. Book on VTEC and get Nectar only on VTEC (you won’t get Nectar on VTEC if you accidentally book on virgintrains.co.uk that’s points on West Coast only). East Coast made a few million extra on commission for selling tickets of other operators, this commission alone was more than enough to cover this scheme, but now as you don’t even get Nectar on 3rd party bookings it makes sense for those tickets to be booked on First Group.

        • callum says:

          11 May11 May 17:45

          SECR: No. As I recall saying many times before, there is a distinct difference between listening to and enacting customer feedback.

          Michael: I have indeed. So the sole focus of this campaign is just to get Virgin to announce that customers don’t prefer Nectar to EC Rewards? That seems like a colossally pointless waste of time. Not least because the alleged times they say stuff like this is generally in woolly language that can be interpreted any way you want.

          SECR: I couldn’t care less whether Virgin know better or not (though I suspect they do). Their company, their decision. If you think all the “listen to customers” stuff genuinely means let customers make commercial decisions on our behalf then you’re going to be bitterly disappointed. Though it’s your time you’re throwing away on this pointless crusade so it’s purely up to you – but don’t moan when you make posts in places like this that people point out the pointlessness of it all.

        • Save East Coast Rewards says:

          11 May11 May 18:39

          callum: last thing I’m going to say on this matter (probably) what’s the difference between people complaining about Avios devaluations (from good – mediocre) and the same complaining about a train scheme (from brilliant – almost useless)?

          We can link to a lot of Virgin drivel where they claim to be different, why can’t we call them on it? http://www.virgin.com/entrepreneur/richard-branson-why-you-should-listen-to-your-customers

        • Michael says:

          11 May11 May 18:51

          Callum – i am not saying that is the sole point of their campaign – thats just a reason for everyone to support it if you are bothered about rewards or not. Do you not think companies should be accountable for their actions?

          Do you not agree that Virgin like to be seen as this ‘honest friendly brand’ that you can trust?

          Just because Virgin is a commercially operating company it doesn’t mean they are making the best decisions for either themselves or their customers and its no bad thing to give a company some bad feedback if you don’t think they are doing the right thing!

          If you complained to a company about their service and didn’t like their response would you just take what they said because its their decision to make? I suspect not?!

        • Jonny Kyle says:

          11 May11 May 20:28

          Ok Callum. Here’s my opinion and dissection of your post.

          “SECR: No. As I recall saying many times before, there is a distinct difference between listening to and enacting customer feedback.”

          So basically their best customers are getting their voices heard but Virgin aren’t budging. Surely the company that “prides on listening to their customers and strives to improve” should be listening and implementing improvements?

          “Michael: I have indeed. So the sole focus of this campaign is just to get Virgin to announce that customers don’t prefer Nectar to EC Rewards? That seems like a colossally pointless waste of time. Not least because the alleged times they say stuff like this is generally in woolly language that can be interpreted any way you want.”

          Doesn’t that show up Virgin for who they really are? All spin no goods in the back? What makes Virgin so different to any other TOC? Nothing. So wasn’t it better to keep EC as EC instead of privatising it and giving taxpayers the best value for money?

          “SECR: I couldn’t care less whether Virgin know better or not (though I suspect they do). Their company, their decision. If you think all the “listen to customers” stuff genuinely means let customers make commercial decisions on our behalf then you’re going to be bitterly disappointed. Though it’s your time you’re throwing away on this pointless crusade so it’s purely up to you – but don’t moan when you make posts in places like this that people point out the pointlessness of it all.”

          ‘Their company, their decision. Their company, their decision. Their company, their decision’
          OUR RAILWAY, OUR DECISION’.
          The railways themselves are public owned and maintained by the government. NOT privately. The railway companies are private, they are effectively outsourced and employed by the government and therefore us to run a service on our behalf, with a share of the profits going to them as a reward. So technically we are the boss, we employ them. So with enough dissatisfied customers we can change what’s happening.

          “You’re a minuscule minority that can be easily ignored by Virgin, and are just wasting your time. But if you want to continue on some warped “principle” then go ahead.”

          Before SECR were on here were you aware of EC rewards at all? I mean, we’re raising awareness, showing up how bad a deal Virgin have created for regular travellers and how the spin can be easily unpicked and opened.

          The campaign will continue. You’re welcome to join if you wish. But it won’t shut down just because you tell us to or because you think it’s ‘pointless’, because it’s not.

          You’ll give up before we will.

        • callum says:

          12 May12 May 18:58

          SECR: There is no difference between them.

          Michael: Actually, yes I would. As would virtually everyone. It’s their company, if they don’t want to alter their policies to suit me then that’s purely their decision. If that’s a deal breaker for me then I simply won’t use them again. That’s what living in a free country is all about.

          Jonny: I couldn’t care less what they “pride themselves” on. The customer is not always right. Their “best” customers are not always right.

          Virgin aren’t any different to any other TOC. Yes, I suspect it would have been better for the public to keep it as EC.

          No, “technically” we are not their boss. Nor does the government owning the railway tracks mean the public have any say in the quality of frequent user scheme used by a private TOC. Can we also dictate that National Express must give out Tesco points because their coaches run on public roads?

          Yes, I was fully aware what East Coast Rewards was before SECR was on here. As, I’d imagine, were the majority of people here, what with there being numerous articles on it. If you think you’re raising awareness then frankly, you’re deluded. Not that raising awareness is a rational thing to do anyway – unless you think you can convince prospective VTEC travellers to refuse to travel (though that in itself is rather deluded).

          I’m not sure I’ve ever told you to shut down your campaign… (My apologies if I did – it’s a free country) Criticise it’s pointlessness sure, but if you want to waste your time then go ahead. I’d love it to succeed – I just know it won’t.

        • Jonny Kyle says:

          13 May13 May 14:07

          “Jonny: I couldn’t care less what they “pride themselves” on. The customer is not always right. Their “best” customers are not always right.”

          Well you should. Read their ‘Red Report’. We’re complaining and they’re not acting upon that, something that was promised to us. This is why we’re angry.

          “Virgin aren’t any different to any other TOC. Yes, I suspect it would have been better for the public to keep it as EC.”

          I’m glad we agree somewhere. 🙂

          “No, “technically” we are not their boss. Nor does the government owning the railway tracks mean the public have any say in the quality of frequent user scheme used by a private TOC. Can we also dictate that National Express must give out Tesco points because their coaches run on public roads?”

          We own the rails they run on, the electric cables, the bridges, and tunnels they run through. We pay them through fares, subsidies derived from taxpayer’s money. If the country so desired, we could renationalise it and take them out completely. And I believe that trend is growing.

          By the way, I’m currently a CSA for National Express. After demand, there are rumours of a link up with a rewards scheme or the creation of an independent one. I’m observing with curiosity.

          “Yes, I was fully aware what East Coast Rewards was before SECR was on here. As, I’d imagine, were the majority of people here, what with there being numerous articles on it. If you think you’re raising awareness then frankly, you’re deluded. Not that raising awareness is a rational thing to do anyway – unless you think you can convince prospective VTEC travellers to refuse to travel (though that in itself is rather deluded).”

          My rationale is that quite a few regular travellers didn’t even know about EC Rewards and that’s proven by the sudden increase in membership and collection of points in the last few months of EC and the beginning of our campaign. By showing what VTEC are, we can show the public that the ‘sweet deal’ we got for the ECML is actually not sweet at all, therefore engaging the public.

          “I’m not sure I’ve ever told you to shut down your campaign… (My apologies if I did – it’s a free country) Criticise it’s pointlessness sure, but if you want to waste your time then go ahead. I’d love it to succeed – I just know it won’t.”

          ‘Waste your time’, you see this is where I get frustrated. Like there’s no point (ironically, we don’t any more with Nectar). But there is a point. I’m sorry if you continue missing the point of it. But I’m sure people opposing Mandela or women’s rights did the same. Basically, every cause that is fought is fought for a reason.

• Pawel says:

  11 May11 May 06:47

  me too at SMD6 😉

• mark2 says:

  11 May11 May 08:38

  It will be interesting to hear whether you recognise what you said after it has been edited by the BBC.

• Jimmy says:

  11 May11 May 09:34

  Rob, at the risk of this sounding like a criticism – and it most certainly is not – how much do you feel that reward-scheme information going mainstream has contributed to (what I perceive as) their long-term devaluation?

  I have a suspicion that things were better in the old days but I’m going back to the time of Concorde when few people knew how to book such a treat with points. Notwithstanding the years 2009-2011 when BA was in a bit of a funk and threw points and status at us to keep us flying, my impression is one of benefits in inverse proportion to their mainstream awareness.

  Or is it just that I feel things are well-known simply because I know about them … therefore it’s mainstream?! 😀

  • Sebastian says:

    11 May11 May 10:29

    I think a lot of it has to do with the American market and how they get ludicrous amounts of points for there credit cards. For instances the Club Carlson credit gave Gold status, 90,000 points and the offer of book two nights get one free (although the this is now gone). As a result of such offers and due to the size of the marketplace I think the hotel schemes had little option, while I am guessing the same is true of the airline schemes.

  • sandgrounder says:

    11 May11 May 10:32

    If you hit the mother lode, keep on mining and keep your mouth shut. Once the word gets out, half the world screams ‘GOLD RUSH!’ and before you know it there are more people than you can count fighting over what you once happliy exploited.

    In such a situation, the people who can be counted on to succeed are no longer the miners, but the suppliers of the picks and shovels. That’s why starting this blog was a stroke of genius!

    I would however dispute ‘mainstream’. That’s a bit strong. Basically everyone I discuss this hobby with in the ‘real’ world loses interest in about 5 seconds! 🙂

    • Hingeless says:

      11 May11 May 13:21

      I have seen a lot of complaints on the Etihad Facebook posts that getting a first apartment is something they could never afford. If only they new how easy it was to get a Amex card, convert the points ,get a refund, Fly first

      It’s not that mainstream

    • Ralph says:

      11 May11 May 13:34

      Agreed, one has to put quite a bit of effort in to track everything and research time and again and it is a time consuming hobby if done correctly and so most people cannot be bothered. Despite my daughter knowing all about it, she and her partner are now added to my BA Family account and I will pick up the Avios from their BA trip to Bali as they don’t have the inclination to save and then build upon these points, 7771 miles x 4, so just over 31,000 Avios, thank you very much.

    • Nick says:

      11 May11 May 21:59

      One of my favourite comments I’ve read on HFP. I’ll never forget raffles saying “when you find a deal/loophole- hit it as hard as u can because it’s will eventually close/end ”

      I think the focus on this blog will eventually change. It’s alright to advise on avios rules and changes etc. but I think a lot of the “trick/loophole/use your dogs name to sign up..” Will heft to end is this blog becomes more and more popular

      • Rob says:

        11 May11 May 23:46

        There is an element of that. There are things I cannot write about because the volume of traffic would kill it … but even when HFP was a quarter of its current size I would not have done it either. Public is public, whatever the readership. Some of the key secret tips have never, ever been revealed online.

        • RK says:

          12 May12 May 18:45

          You can tell me Rob, I won’t tell anyone 😉

        • RK says:

          12 May12 May 18:48

          There were some serious loopholes in a certain latin American airline frequent flyer program. Some airports were miscoded as being in the wrong continent which allowed people to fly in Business and First across continents and further for the price of domestic redemptions.

          These loopholes lasted 3+ years before being recently fixed. They were also a closely guarded secret on flyertalk, you had to work hard to figure them out.

          There are still some amazing things you can do that are in no way “mainstream” and are only found out by those willing to put the work in.

• mikeact says:

  11 May11 May 09:37

  Morning Rob, watch out for the autograph hunters….you’ll probably have to run the gauntlet of your groupies as well.

• Froggitt says:

  11 May11 May 10:30

  In “the olden days” I was interviewed on Working Lunch BBC2. Boy am I pleased it wasn’t live and they edited it!!!

• ADS says:

  11 May11 May 10:56

  looks like it should be http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05tkvk6

  • pauldb says:

    11 May11 May 13:26

    yep; at 32:35

• gnarlyoldgoatdude says:

  11 May11 May 12:48

  So happy that you are following the “power from poo” story.

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